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this is that triangle you know there's

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explanation for everything that appeared

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in the Rendlesham forest incident that

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doesn't involve aliens at all it was

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completely silent it comes right over

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our head it's so a classic flying-saucer

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really standing in the clearing he

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turned over to my father and held his

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hand and he looked in his eyes and said

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we're not alone welcome to podcast UFO

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for our live show during the show feel

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free to participate live in our chat

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room and don't forget to like us on our

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very active Facebook page hello and

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welcome to the show on Martin Willis

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your host and we have a fun show for you

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this evening

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the hang on just a second I see what's

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going on

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alright we have a fun show and what is

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happening we have we have in-house here

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we have a guest and his name is Ryan

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McClatchy and actually I was at a bagel

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shop and met Ryan and he told quite a

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story so he has driven over from not too

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far away and is going to be telling his

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story what happened before that though

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we have Alejandro Rojas coming up with

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the news and just a couple of

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announcements this Friday for anyone

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that can actually participate and watch

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something live during the day Friday at

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1:00 p.m. Eastern Standard Time we have

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the sons of J Allen Hynek that will be

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on the show and a live stream on YouTube

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it'll also be a bonus podcast for

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subscribers so that will be going out

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over the weekend should be exciting and

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anyone that wants to email questions for

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Paul or Joel Hynek just email me at

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podcast

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I'd be glad to pose some questions I

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already have some questions I posted

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something on Facebook and so that will

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be a lot of fun so that's coming up my

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guest tonight is repeat guests and good

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friend peter robbins he will be on right

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after with ryan and he's going to join

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me to talk with ryan about his UFO

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encounter thanks so much to everyone

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that support

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a show that's always very appreciated

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and also each and every listener out

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there is important and thanks for

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checking out the show and listening and

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we have a lot of exciting shows coming

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up and I'll talk about that later on at

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the end of the show and Alejandro

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welcome to the show and thank you hello

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thank you we have a little tough start

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here and no problemo yeah hey you don't

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have your background today I have a

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different background just a black yeah

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so yeah there's a number minute man in

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black right there yes yeah keepin it

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simple

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right right so what's what's happening

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in the UFO world is this like what's

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happenin so there's a lot of discussion

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around the television show Project Blue

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Book and the reason I bring it up

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because I think one of the most

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important discussions that happened is

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in the Air Force times so this is a

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great article and essentially it's funny

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that you know they're reviewing Blue

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Book and talking about of course the Air

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Force and their involvement with UFO

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research so they talk about Blue Book

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they talk about how it is based on

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reality but mid-story they say the

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series diverges from historical fact

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when Hynek begins to suspect that he has

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been duped by the government into a

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conspiracy to cover up the truth that

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are kind of saying you know that didn't

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really happen however they do

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interestingly enough go into how if

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Hynek did feel that way he would be

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justified in feeling that way because

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they actually go into some of hynix work

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and how the Air Force was kind of you

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know he his problems that he had with

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the Air Force

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then interesting enough the story goes

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into say that you know Project Blue Book

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clothes they didn't really find much and

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they use this quote that you can find on

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the Air Force page it says since the

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termination of Project Blue Book nothing

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has occurred that would support a

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resumption of UFO investigations by the

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Air Force some of us are very familiar

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with that term but they do go on to say

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it has been recently revealed that the

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Pentagon did ignore

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J did have a UFO program they referenced

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that New York Times article and they say

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it ran from 2007 to 2012 and what they

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say is that it's suspected that this

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program still goes on to this day

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so it's a thorough you know article and

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you think it's look you think it's

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informative without being you know like

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acting like mr. ng subject I don't think

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so I think it is in fact the way that it

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ends is the existence of these programs

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doesn't necessarily mean that UFOs are

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extraterrestrial in nature but they do

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show that the government takes

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unidentified aerial object seriously

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perhaps worried about the ever-growing

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capabilities of near-peer adversaries or

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far so which i think is honest you know

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that and that's which is different

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though it kind of would this was not the

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sort of statement we had been getting

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prior to Elizondo coming out prior to

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that it was more dismissive yeah so for

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them to say this I think it's really

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important and a significant change in

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tactic in that they're saying okay yeah

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UFOs are important you know and explain

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things we need to look into them because

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of what they could potentially be which

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is exactly what UFO researchers have

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been saying and many have been saying

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for a long time and we know they look

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into these things but they deny looking

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into him at all which is just was a

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ridiculous stance to take and it was a

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stance that they took for decades so I

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think this change is helpful and I also

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want to say you know there's been a lot

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of back and forth then in the UFO

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community not surprisingly because the

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UFO community is one of the most cynical

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and negative communities I think out

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there I don't know if it takes to call

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yourself a UFO researcher you have to

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have a grumpy bad attitude or something

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literally available move into that just

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I just want to ask this one question now

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100 where can someone find that article

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it's the Air Force

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Air Force x thank you yeah and of course

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you can find that out on open minds in

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our open minds UFO group forum or I

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think I've got this one on our front

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page but if not I will soon but the

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other there is another blue book article

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and this one is about the first episode

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which is a 1948 dog fight that the first

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episode was representing and here's my

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point is that culturally here's the

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significance of this show and I did on

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my den of geek review of the show I even

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wrote this that regardless of how

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accurate the show is the end result the

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the big result that I think is helpful

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is that people are paying attention to

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real cases in that this project Bluebook

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existed at a level that we never had

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there was no reason for the general

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public to get involved with knowing any

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of this and now there is and so here's a

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story from a local paper that is writing

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the Bismarck Tribune writing about hey

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this first episode of this television

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show covered a UFO case from our area

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and then they review this remarkable

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case what is a great case so I think

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we're just gonna see more and more of

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that as a weeks go by and cases are

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covered more local papers writing hey

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this TV show covered us and then

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there'll be more information getting out

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about these great cases and I think what

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people are forgetting and and I haven't

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seen this referenced in not one critique

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article that was critical of the show I

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think it's fair that you've got to

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mention that the History Channel is

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posting some great articles that are

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going over these real cases and I think

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that that is something they didn't have

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to do and no one else has ever done

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before right so I think these are you

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know I maybe I'm being a Pollyanna which

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I don't mind my role being looking at

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the positive but I think there's a lot

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of positive effects here that are going

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to result from this the show for people

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of us interested in this this field well

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I don't know about you but if I watch

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something and I'm really interested in

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it and it says based on a true story the

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first thing I do after I watch it is I

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go and I research that story so exactly

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this is just what I do you know like I

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like to know

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what exactly really did happen and I'm

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the same way but we'll do that too yeah

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and you know I assume that the show is

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going to be way off from history and

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that's why I want to look at the real

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history because usually they are it's

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not often that they stick really close

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to the facts because it's that's just

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extremely difficult to do when you're

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fictionalizing something for drama to be

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interesting to people you've got to kind

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of encapsulate you know ideas and

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concepts and and which is what they've

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done with the show and I still do like

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the show I understand people's concerns

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but yeah so that's the project Bluebook

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news since he said it himself live on my

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show I'm going to repeat what Mac

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Maloney said he said I'm not gonna watch

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that and I said why and he says you said

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you know they add theatrical elements to

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it he says now it's not for me he says

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aren't UFOs enough you know isn't it and

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enough the way it is they don't have to

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add anything to it and but I you know

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that was Mac Melones comment on the

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whole thing but I had he's going to

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watch it like you know do some closet

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watching okay yeah I like the rest of us

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yeah

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another story that is really getting out

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there which is great and of course you

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had him Calvin Parker on your show yeah

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is a pascagoula case and in an Alabama

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paper this is out of Mobile Alabama Fox

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out of Mobile has done this special on

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Pascagoula of course that happened in

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Mississippi but they've got this special

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that I haven't watched it but they have

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an article that accompanies it and I

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guess it's nearly an hour long do the

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one I watch no I probably watched was a

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shorter version of it it was it wasn't

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really that long I can't remember

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exactly how long but it was very well

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done actually I was really impressed and

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there was you know it's I love Calvin

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and I can't wait to meet him at your

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conference this year and he's very

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believable he is and I think that he's

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kind of like a Walton Travis Walton who

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had

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you know alleged alien experiences but

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he's a very grounded down-to-earth

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person and talking to Travis to me is

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one of the things you can do that will

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convince you the most and Calvin is like

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that also just a very grounded person

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and it's shocking and it must be his

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personality to see all of these news

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outlets who are writing about this case

273
00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:34,410
taking it seriously and not really

274
00:11:38,630 --> 00:11:36,090
making fun of it which is surprising

275
00:11:41,390 --> 00:11:38,640
because it's a really wild you know

276
00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:41,400
thing that they describe happening so

277
00:11:46,700 --> 00:11:44,130
it's it's nice to see this this positive

278
00:11:50,090 --> 00:11:46,710
news that's out there yeah and I just

279
00:11:52,730 --> 00:11:50,100
can't see I can't see Calvin making any

280
00:11:54,710 --> 00:11:52,740
of that up and for the people you know

281
00:11:56,900 --> 00:11:54,720
that have not listened to that shole or

282
00:11:59,570 --> 00:11:56,910
know much about the case basically they

283
00:12:02,750 --> 00:11:59,580
were fishing and then this blue light

284
00:12:05,630 --> 00:12:02,760
came down and these these beings I think

285
00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:05,640
three beings floated toward them and as

286
00:12:11,090 --> 00:12:07,760
soon as they touched one of them touched

287
00:12:12,830 --> 00:12:11,100
him two grabbed Hickson but as soon as

288
00:12:15,710 --> 00:12:12,840
they touch Calvin he said he felt you

289
00:12:17,780 --> 00:12:15,720
know completely relaxed and he said he

290
00:12:20,210 --> 00:12:17,790
basically levitated back to the ship and

291
00:12:24,770 --> 00:12:20,220
you know they did experiments on him not

292
00:12:26,450 --> 00:12:24,780
not you know evasive experiments but and

293
00:12:29,030 --> 00:12:26,460
then basically let him go who floated

294
00:12:30,650 --> 00:12:29,040
back and there he was and didn't want to

295
00:12:32,990 --> 00:12:30,660
talk about it and the best thing I think

296
00:12:34,930 --> 00:12:33,000
of that whole entire case is when they

297
00:12:37,880 --> 00:12:34,940
snuck the tape recording into the police

298
00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:37,890
the police snuck the tape recording into

299
00:12:41,630 --> 00:12:39,810
the room when they didn't know anyone

300
00:12:42,890 --> 00:12:41,640
was there and you know they're recording

301
00:12:45,590 --> 00:12:42,900
how scared they were about the whole

302
00:12:47,450 --> 00:12:45,600
situation and then they py detector

303
00:12:49,130 --> 00:12:47,460
tests you know it's great I think

304
00:12:51,140 --> 00:12:49,140
another credible part of this is that

305
00:12:52,730 --> 00:12:51,150
Calvin took off he didn't want a lot

306
00:12:56,360 --> 00:12:52,740
like he didn't want attention and he

307
00:12:57,950 --> 00:12:56,370
literally left town and was gone and

308
00:13:00,950 --> 00:12:57,960
didn't speak about this for decades

309
00:13:03,710 --> 00:13:00,960
until just recently and I think that

310
00:13:06,170 --> 00:13:03,720
lends to the credibility as well and I

311
00:13:07,610 --> 00:13:06,180
was up not to tried to sound like I'm

312
00:13:10,610 --> 00:13:07,620
bragging but I was basically the first

313
00:13:12,590 --> 00:13:10,620
person to dig him up for many years and

314
00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:12,600
had him on my show and got him connected

315
00:13:17,900 --> 00:13:15,930
to to Phil mantle to write the book and

316
00:13:19,820 --> 00:13:17,910
all that stuff so that really I was

317
00:13:21,550 --> 00:13:19,830
really glad really I was really I guess

318
00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:21,560
I didn't realize that timeline

319
00:13:26,350 --> 00:13:24,410
and yet Phil had met him first no no I I

320
00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:26,360
connect this two together so anyway it

321
00:13:32,380 --> 00:13:28,970
was really I was grateful that I was

322
00:13:35,650 --> 00:13:32,390
able to do that well done Martin so this

323
00:13:37,570 --> 00:13:35,660
whole news kind of fury that's going on

324
00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:37,580
with him this this whole all these

325
00:13:43,900 --> 00:13:41,210
stories are largely you were the one who

326
00:13:45,130 --> 00:13:43,910
who made this all happen well I I helped

327
00:13:46,690 --> 00:13:45,140
with a little but it probably would have

328
00:13:50,950 --> 00:13:46,700
happened anyway but I appreciate that

329
00:13:53,230 --> 00:13:50,960
maybe good job yeah so one other story I

330
00:13:56,140 --> 00:13:53,240
want to talk about her real quick here I

331
00:13:58,030 --> 00:13:56,150
just think this is a neat one this story

332
00:14:00,370 --> 00:13:58,040
going around why our galaxy probably

333
00:14:02,650 --> 00:14:00,380
isn't full of alien civilizations they

334
00:14:05,350 --> 00:14:02,660
could have been killed off by climate

335
00:14:09,370 --> 00:14:05,360
change but I think it's an interesting

336
00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:09,380
thought in that you know if there are

337
00:14:16,180 --> 00:14:12,890
many many intelligent civilizations out

338
00:14:18,310 --> 00:14:16,190
there which seems to make sense that

339
00:14:20,560 --> 00:14:18,320
there would be in at the statistics show

340
00:14:22,660 --> 00:14:20,570
that that would be the case then it

341
00:14:25,330 --> 00:14:22,670
could be also the case that many of

342
00:14:27,730 --> 00:14:25,340
these have come and gone possibly some

343
00:14:30,790 --> 00:14:27,740
like this from natural or natural

344
00:14:34,420 --> 00:14:30,800
occurrences some maybe by destroying

345
00:14:36,700 --> 00:14:34,430
themselves and you know who knows a

346
00:14:38,620 --> 00:14:36,710
number of other ideas so I think it's

347
00:14:40,870 --> 00:14:38,630
kind of neat to speculate about these

348
00:14:43,720 --> 00:14:40,880
sort of things and who knows

349
00:14:47,920 --> 00:14:43,730
will we be killed off by climate change

350
00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:47,930
or will we kill ourselves off or will we

351
00:14:53,560 --> 00:14:50,570
make it into some grand future of

352
00:14:56,800 --> 00:14:53,570
enlightenment I would like to hope for

353
00:15:00,870 --> 00:14:56,810
the last the latter but fear for the

354
00:15:07,150 --> 00:15:00,880
prior one of the prior yeah yeah exactly

355
00:15:08,260 --> 00:15:07,160
I fear too and anyway hopefully we'll

356
00:15:11,230 --> 00:15:08,270
catch it before it's too late

357
00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:11,240
thanks so much Alejandro nice talking to

358
00:15:15,690 --> 00:15:13,850
you and we'll be talking next week my

359
00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:15,700
pleasure talk to you next week all right

360
00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:19,040
okay take care all right everyone so our

361
00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:21,170
guest and we only have five minutes

362
00:15:28,450 --> 00:15:24,170
break at this point our guest is Peter

363
00:15:30,220 --> 00:15:28,460
Robbins Peter welcome to the show thanks

364
00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:30,230
it's great to be back on with you Martin

365
00:15:35,050 --> 00:15:32,810
always always great to be back talking

366
00:15:37,870 --> 00:15:35,060
with you and

367
00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:37,880
let's see so I want to also bring in

368
00:15:44,740 --> 00:15:40,850
Peter well we'll talk further about

369
00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:44,750
what's going on with you and what we're

370
00:15:48,010 --> 00:15:45,770
going to be talking about some

371
00:15:53,350 --> 00:15:48,020
interesting things James Forrestal of

372
00:15:55,060 --> 00:15:53,360
course and also your good friend fellow

373
00:15:56,860 --> 00:15:55,070
artist Budd Hopkins where you'll be

374
00:16:00,610 --> 00:15:56,870
talking about that for now I'm gonna

375
00:16:02,650 --> 00:16:00,620
bring in our local guest Ryan McLane

376
00:16:03,580 --> 00:16:02,660
Ryan welcome to the show thank you very

377
00:16:05,890 --> 00:16:03,590
much glad to be here

378
00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:05,900
yeah yeah I have to keep looking this

379
00:16:11,590 --> 00:16:07,850
way to see you

380
00:16:13,990 --> 00:16:11,600
but anyway Peter so I talked to you

381
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:14,000
briefly ahead of the show met Ryan

382
00:16:19,570 --> 00:16:17,600
locally here in a bagel shop so Ryan I

383
00:16:22,150 --> 00:16:19,580
would love for you to tell tell the

384
00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:22,160
first of all the setting first and and

385
00:16:30,100 --> 00:16:24,410
tell us your story how that all happened

386
00:16:34,030 --> 00:16:30,110
all right so it was on October 2nd 2016

387
00:16:36,490 --> 00:16:34,040
I was had been working in the Greater

388
00:16:37,960 --> 00:16:36,500
Moosehead Lake region of Maine and at

389
00:16:40,690 --> 00:16:37,970
the time I was working on hiking trails

390
00:16:42,730 --> 00:16:40,700
I had some friends who had a camp very

391
00:16:45,340 --> 00:16:42,740
close to where I was staying and two of

392
00:16:49,390 --> 00:16:45,350
my very good friends came up to see me

393
00:16:52,330 --> 00:16:49,400
and to spend some time there and on that

394
00:16:54,700 --> 00:16:52,340
evening of the second we had been having

395
00:16:57,310 --> 00:16:54,710
just a fantastic day we're walking back

396
00:16:59,290 --> 00:16:57,320
to the cabin that I was staying at which

397
00:17:01,690 --> 00:16:59,300
was about a quarter mile maybe a third

398
00:17:04,120 --> 00:17:01,700
of a mile away from his family's place

399
00:17:07,570 --> 00:17:04,130
and it's six miles down a dirt road

400
00:17:10,120 --> 00:17:07,580
about seven or eight from a town of

401
00:17:12,070 --> 00:17:10,130
about a thousand people so pretty far

402
00:17:14,830 --> 00:17:12,080
out there and as we were walking up this

403
00:17:19,210 --> 00:17:14,840
hill we were all side by side and and I

404
00:17:22,300 --> 00:17:19,220
had a headlamp on and we saw this light

405
00:17:24,100 --> 00:17:22,310
coming almost at us but kind of

406
00:17:26,260 --> 00:17:24,110
diagonally towards us through the woods

407
00:17:28,750 --> 00:17:26,270
and it's in an older growth forest so

408
00:17:31,900 --> 00:17:28,760
it's pretty open and definitely a mixed

409
00:17:35,380 --> 00:17:31,910
mixed wood species and and as it was

410
00:17:40,330 --> 00:17:35,390
coming towards us we all turned to it

411
00:17:42,130 --> 00:17:40,340
and what I saw and what they saw was 3 3

412
00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:42,140
different things but some similarities

413
00:17:48,940 --> 00:17:46,730
within it I saw what I believed to be a

414
00:17:53,980 --> 00:17:48,950
woman in all way in

415
00:17:55,930 --> 00:17:53,990
white rope floating and my other friend

416
00:17:57,100 --> 00:17:55,940
thought they saw a man and all white

417
00:17:58,930 --> 00:17:57,110
floating with the he had a light with

418
00:18:01,140 --> 00:17:58,940
him and then the other friend doesn't

419
00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:01,150
remember what he saw but when I

420
00:18:08,350 --> 00:18:05,330
experienced in that moment was I felt

421
00:18:12,190 --> 00:18:08,360
drawn to it as if I couldn't not turn

422
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:12,200
towards it and so can I just yeah please

423
00:18:18,370 --> 00:18:16,090
when you when this was floating at you

424
00:18:21,340 --> 00:18:18,380
at first you thought it was a like now

425
00:18:24,010 --> 00:18:21,350
this was above you and floating toward

426
00:18:25,780 --> 00:18:24,020
you uh-huh yeah it was almost as if we

427
00:18:26,980 --> 00:18:25,790
were walking towards it but it was

428
00:18:28,810 --> 00:18:26,990
coming in a bit of a different

429
00:18:31,510 --> 00:18:28,820
trajectory through the wood so it wasn't

430
00:18:33,850 --> 00:18:31,520
directly at us but it was going to

431
00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:33,860
almost transect our position in a sense

432
00:18:37,990 --> 00:18:35,570
but but you were saying now there were

433
00:18:40,150 --> 00:18:38,000
three lights but you see but you saw one

434
00:18:41,410 --> 00:18:40,160
figure out of these three oh there was

435
00:18:44,050 --> 00:18:41,420
there was one there was why I was saying

436
00:18:46,750 --> 00:18:44,060
they were saw three of us and and the

437
00:18:49,990 --> 00:18:46,760
one the one light but it it came in it

438
00:18:52,900 --> 00:18:50,000
got hard to describe but almost

439
00:18:56,470 --> 00:18:52,910
infinitely bright in such a fast time

440
00:18:58,060 --> 00:18:56,480
period that I I felt myself lose control

441
00:19:00,700 --> 00:18:58,070
of my body and I just felt myself

442
00:19:04,180 --> 00:19:00,710
dropped to my knees as if my arms went

443
00:19:07,360 --> 00:19:04,190
limp and I lost consciousness in that

444
00:19:09,670 --> 00:19:07,370
time period and and it felt like

445
00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:09,680
everything in my body and my life's

446
00:19:15,970 --> 00:19:12,890
stopped and then I was hit with so much

447
00:19:17,830 --> 00:19:15,980
positivity from whatever this experience

448
00:19:20,350 --> 00:19:17,840
was and then I came to and I was in my

449
00:19:22,900 --> 00:19:20,360
like kitchen at my camp that was down

450
00:19:25,570 --> 00:19:22,910
the road were you like on the floor I

451
00:19:28,350 --> 00:19:25,580
was I was I was I was not on the floor I

452
00:19:31,420 --> 00:19:28,360
was standing and my two friends

453
00:19:33,550 --> 00:19:31,430
explained to me that well from what they

454
00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:33,560
believed is that we walk back so neither

455
00:19:37,990 --> 00:19:36,410
one of them claims to have fully lost

456
00:19:40,690 --> 00:19:38,000
consciousness yet all three of us have

457
00:19:43,050 --> 00:19:40,700
different recollections of even where it

458
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:43,060
happened after was the discussion so

459
00:19:50,380 --> 00:19:45,410
Peter you can jump in if you want to ask

460
00:19:53,890 --> 00:19:50,390
any questions yeah Ryan first I'm very

461
00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:53,900
moved by this you're obviously doing

462
00:19:59,410 --> 00:19:55,850
your best to relate to us in the

463
00:20:02,180 --> 00:19:59,420
audience a genuine extraordinary

464
00:20:04,280 --> 00:20:02,190
experience that you truly had and your

465
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:04,290
did as well and I think that takes a

466
00:20:11,450 --> 00:20:07,050
certain amount of courage and I I

467
00:20:13,460 --> 00:20:11,460
appreciate it you remind me and I've

468
00:20:19,870 --> 00:20:13,470
been involved in paranormal studies for

469
00:20:25,690 --> 00:20:19,880
over 40 years then if I ever lose the

470
00:20:30,650 --> 00:20:25,700
sensibility or the ability to respond to

471
00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:30,660
something like this from a person I

472
00:20:37,700 --> 00:20:35,310
think I should leave this field about

473
00:20:42,250 --> 00:20:37,710
what time did this occur and was it

474
00:20:46,360 --> 00:20:42,260
already dark it was it was dark the last

475
00:20:50,510 --> 00:20:46,370
reference that I had for time was around

476
00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:50,520
7:15 or 7:30 okay and when did this

477
00:20:56,540 --> 00:20:54,360
occur exactly you're saying the exact

478
00:20:58,550 --> 00:20:56,550
time that happened or no I am dead out

479
00:21:03,260 --> 00:20:58,560
you know week two weeks months ago

480
00:21:04,480 --> 00:21:03,270
you're oh yes was October 6 October 2nd

481
00:21:08,510 --> 00:21:04,490
2016

482
00:21:10,990 --> 00:21:08,520
ok and obviously you had never had an

483
00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:11,000
experience like this before I mean no

484
00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:16,050
okay and ever since nope about I'm sorry

485
00:21:20,570 --> 00:21:17,310
we're gonna have to we're gonna have to

486
00:21:21,770 --> 00:21:20,580
break it there and and we're gonna just

487
00:21:24,050 --> 00:21:21,780
made a note

488
00:21:26,780 --> 00:21:24,060
Peter of what you asked and we'll come

489
00:21:27,050 --> 00:21:26,790
back to that yeah so thank you Ron thank

490
00:21:29,600 --> 00:21:27,060
you

491
00:21:33,170 --> 00:21:29,610
alright and so this is Martin Willis I

492
00:21:36,050 --> 00:21:33,180
have an in in studio guest Ryan

493
00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:36,060
McGlashan and Peter Robbins is a guest

494
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:38,400
and the podcast UFO will be back right

495
00:21:46,940 --> 00:21:44,400
after these messages clear you have just

496
00:21:49,460 --> 00:21:46,950
over three minutes alright alright Wow

497
00:21:54,110 --> 00:21:49,470
sorry for the delay alright so now we're

498
00:21:55,790 --> 00:21:54,120
on YouTube only and so we have I hope

499
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:55,800
I'm not keeping you too long that's bye

500
00:22:02,060 --> 00:21:58,320
okay so we have three minutes to go here

501
00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:02,070
on on YouTube only so Peter you're

502
00:22:04,740 --> 00:22:03,930
welcome or I I'm gonna ask him a

503
00:22:06,480 --> 00:22:04,750
different

504
00:22:09,980 --> 00:22:06,490
question and we'll go back to where you

505
00:22:12,540 --> 00:22:09,990
were you're now after the break and so

506
00:22:15,870 --> 00:22:12,550
you're saying that the your other

507
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:15,880
friends had different experiences can

508
00:22:20,850 --> 00:22:17,970
you explain of what each of them

509
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:20,860
basically if you sat down had a beer

510
00:22:26,730 --> 00:22:23,050
with your buddies how would they

511
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:26,740
describe what happened um very briefly

512
00:22:31,820 --> 00:22:28,930
and they're not as comfortable as I am

513
00:22:35,250 --> 00:22:31,830
Damon talk let me think that there's a

514
00:22:37,770 --> 00:22:35,260
bit to it where they're both proud big

515
00:22:40,410 --> 00:22:37,780
strong independent man is the fact that

516
00:22:42,420 --> 00:22:40,420
happens they they don't have the lose

517
00:22:44,970 --> 00:22:42,430
control yeah they don't have the words

518
00:22:47,010 --> 00:22:44,980
to describe it and I've tried to talk to

519
00:22:49,470 --> 00:22:47,020
them about it but it's just like you

520
00:22:50,850 --> 00:22:49,480
know it's not it's not a it's not so

521
00:22:52,260 --> 00:22:50,860
much of a talking point more as it's

522
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:52,270
like we should we should not talk about

523
00:22:57,270 --> 00:22:55,330
it yeah yeah they change the subject or

524
00:22:59,130 --> 00:22:57,280
something they're not even so much

525
00:23:00,990 --> 00:22:59,140
change the subject it's just I just know

526
00:23:04,050 --> 00:23:01,000
I know them well enough that it's it's

527
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:04,060
we talked about it so much in that in

528
00:23:09,540 --> 00:23:06,730
that night and after it just it seemed

529
00:23:12,690 --> 00:23:09,550
like we couldn't make sense of much of

530
00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:12,700
anything but yet it was we couldn't

531
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:14,110
sleep you know we didn't want to be

532
00:23:20,100 --> 00:23:16,690
outside we didn't really know what to do

533
00:23:22,950 --> 00:23:20,110
I think for so you've had an adrenaline

534
00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:22,960
dump an epinephrine dump there's an

535
00:23:28,350 --> 00:23:25,450
aspect of physiological shock it is a

536
00:23:30,750 --> 00:23:28,360
classic guy reaction not that it doesn't

537
00:23:34,770 --> 00:23:30,760
happen to women but it's a classic guy

538
00:23:37,350 --> 00:23:34,780
thing some of us are less armored or you

539
00:23:40,940 --> 00:23:37,360
know to be sound new aging more in touch

540
00:23:43,710 --> 00:23:40,950
with our feelings less anxious about

541
00:23:44,940 --> 00:23:43,720
expressing them or feeling them but your

542
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:44,950
heart has to go out to these guys

543
00:23:50,250 --> 00:23:48,610
because this represents everything that

544
00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:50,260
makes you uncomfortable that you can't

545
00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:53,170
control that stops at the end of what is

546
00:24:01,140 --> 00:23:55,930
finite definable I only wish him the

547
00:24:03,030 --> 00:24:01,150
best but don't push mm-hmm yeah so yeah

548
00:24:05,210 --> 00:24:03,040
basically at the end of wanting to talk

549
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:05,220
about it obviously and had you ever

550
00:24:12,900 --> 00:24:10,690
considered regression yes I have you

551
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:12,910
know yeah and what do you think about

552
00:24:24,610 --> 00:24:21,270
a really terrifying period in my life

553
00:24:26,170 --> 00:24:24,620
everything that I felt is that I knew

554
00:24:28,140 --> 00:24:26,180
and had experience I have goosebumps

555
00:24:30,940 --> 00:24:28,150
right now just thinking about it it was

556
00:24:32,740 --> 00:24:30,950
you know you you believe you question

557
00:24:34,180 --> 00:24:32,750
you want to try to understand better and

558
00:24:37,450 --> 00:24:34,190
then something happens and it's like a

559
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:37,460
fresh it's it's a the new it's a new

560
00:24:43,150 --> 00:24:40,730
fresh canvas it's like wow what's going

561
00:24:44,560 --> 00:24:43,160
on I can't even tell you it's down when

562
00:24:46,990 --> 00:24:44,570
you're ready oh we have one minute left

563
00:24:49,660 --> 00:24:47,000
I'm sorry good yeah I can't even tell

564
00:24:52,570 --> 00:24:49,670
you how many times I've heard variations

565
00:24:55,180 --> 00:24:52,580
on people say those things that what you

566
00:24:57,010 --> 00:24:55,190
just said to me or that I have said it

567
00:24:59,860 --> 00:24:57,020
regarding the experience that I had when

568
00:25:02,080 --> 00:24:59,870
I was a kid growing up on Long Island

569
00:25:04,210 --> 00:25:02,090
and had the profound UFO sighting with

570
00:25:10,000 --> 00:25:04,220
my sister that ultimately changed my

571
00:25:12,100 --> 00:25:10,010
life right right yeah Peter we've talked

572
00:25:14,710 --> 00:25:12,110
about that and that's pretty amazing and

573
00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:14,720
I if I remember correctly Peter did your

574
00:25:18,610 --> 00:25:17,840
sister block that out no she never

575
00:25:20,170 --> 00:25:18,620
forgot it

576
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:20,180
I'm the one that blocked it out right

577
00:25:26,200 --> 00:25:22,970
totally for more than 13 years we're

578
00:25:27,730 --> 00:25:26,210
ready to get started here okay so feel

579
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:27,740
free to break in to the conversation

580
00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:32,690
count us down yes everybody ready yes

581
00:25:46,120 --> 00:25:40,290
all right I'll count you down in five

582
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:46,130
four three two already one welcome back

583
00:25:51,090 --> 00:25:48,530
this is Martin Willis and I Martin

584
00:25:54,040 --> 00:25:51,100
Willis I have my guests peter robbins

585
00:25:57,510 --> 00:25:54,050
repeat guests of course and ryan

586
00:25:59,770 --> 00:25:57,520
McGlashan and we're talking about ryan's

587
00:26:02,680 --> 00:25:59,780
experience he had in the deep woods of

588
00:26:04,330 --> 00:26:02,690
Maine up near the largest lake in Maine

589
00:26:06,730 --> 00:26:04,340
it's a big huge Lake and a lot of

590
00:26:08,500 --> 00:26:06,740
wilderness and a lot of strange things

591
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:08,510
as things have happened up there

592
00:26:13,690 --> 00:26:10,610
including the allagash incident not too

593
00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:13,700
far from there hey boys into when this

594
00:26:18,340 --> 00:26:16,970
happened Ryan and I know Peter you were

595
00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:18,350
talking before he went into the break

596
00:26:23,460 --> 00:26:20,210
and asking about when it happened we'll

597
00:26:28,240 --> 00:26:23,470
get back to them but when this happened

598
00:26:29,530 --> 00:26:28,250
what did you think happened did you try

599
00:26:34,090 --> 00:26:29,540
to research what happen

600
00:26:37,510 --> 00:26:34,100
I did I did try to research it but I I I

601
00:26:39,940 --> 00:26:37,520
felt like I was contacted by some being

602
00:26:41,710 --> 00:26:39,950
of a higher power and that's all I could

603
00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:41,720
come to terms with this was part of the

604
00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:44,810
very difficult bit of trying to talk to

605
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:47,120
my two friends and experiences with a

606
00:26:51,910 --> 00:26:49,490
they didn't know what happened but when

607
00:26:53,860 --> 00:26:51,920
you said it did you say those words to

608
00:26:57,250 --> 00:26:53,870
them and they freaked them out my friend

609
00:26:59,490 --> 00:26:57,260
did when we were in back at my place and

610
00:27:02,350 --> 00:26:59,500
where I regained consciousness and and

611
00:27:04,390 --> 00:27:02,360
he said that we need to go back to the

612
00:27:05,890 --> 00:27:04,400
camp and I need to grab a gun to hurt

613
00:27:08,290 --> 00:27:05,900
myself and I just looked at him and

614
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:08,300
laughed like I know I was crying at the

615
00:27:11,320 --> 00:27:09,050
time too

616
00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:11,330
yeah I was overwhelmed I was like the

617
00:27:15,250 --> 00:27:13,010
it's not even a thought he should have

618
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:15,260
right now like whatever that was there's

619
00:27:19,360 --> 00:27:16,850
no please not a gun out there that's

620
00:27:22,360 --> 00:27:19,370
gonna protect you all right well said

621
00:27:24,100 --> 00:27:22,370
and oh you're wrong you were asking

622
00:27:26,170 --> 00:27:24,110
about when this happened and I think he

623
00:27:29,320 --> 00:27:26,180
kind of addressed it was our poster up

624
00:27:31,930 --> 00:27:29,330
2016 yeah ii of t i doesn't know that's

625
00:27:34,360 --> 00:27:31,940
understood now you had mentioned when we

626
00:27:37,570 --> 00:27:34,370
were off the air but on youtube

627
00:27:40,540 --> 00:27:37,580
continuing a conversation that your

628
00:27:42,970 --> 00:27:40,550
conscious memory is there was a feeling

629
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:42,980
of certainly a positive feeling

630
00:27:48,940 --> 00:27:45,410
overwhelmed you you were terrified in

631
00:27:51,850 --> 00:27:48,950
your conscious mind yeah when i turned

632
00:27:54,250 --> 00:27:51,860
towards the being in the light it you

633
00:27:57,010 --> 00:27:54,260
know it hit me was so much positive

634
00:27:59,950 --> 00:27:57,020
energy that i I felt like that was what

635
00:28:03,760 --> 00:27:59,960
made me lose consciousness you know and

636
00:28:06,370 --> 00:28:03,770
and I came to and I was crying both with

637
00:28:08,860 --> 00:28:06,380
being scared but also with like

638
00:28:10,330 --> 00:28:08,870
happiness and confusion yes it was I

639
00:28:13,920 --> 00:28:10,340
honestly felt like I was killed and

640
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:13,930
reborn in an instant I just you know

641
00:28:20,710 --> 00:28:16,850
your choice of words is it's very

642
00:28:22,090 --> 00:28:20,720
affecting and again I think spot on in

643
00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:22,100
doing their best to describe an

644
00:28:27,880 --> 00:28:25,730
indescribable situation however also

645
00:28:30,010 --> 00:28:27,890
mentioning off the air when Martin asked

646
00:28:33,310 --> 00:28:30,020
you if you've considered regressive

647
00:28:36,130 --> 00:28:33,320
hypnosis to relive or confront this

648
00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:36,140
situation that that does make you

649
00:28:40,630 --> 00:28:38,450
anxious that there is a feeling of maybe

650
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:40,640
this wasn't a fun event on a certain

651
00:28:44,860 --> 00:28:42,770
level and that what I

652
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:44,870
remember what I experienced was what we

653
00:28:48,190 --> 00:28:46,250
would call a screen memory and there was

654
00:28:51,790 --> 00:28:48,200
something behind it that could provoke

655
00:28:53,350 --> 00:28:51,800
tremendous anxiety mildly yeah I feel

656
00:28:58,300 --> 00:28:53,360
pretty anxious right now thinking about

657
00:29:00,250 --> 00:28:58,310
it well respect that over many years

658
00:29:02,950 --> 00:29:00,260
that I work with but Hopkins who

659
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:02,960
pioneered the use of regressive hypnosis

660
00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:06,050
to a great degree extensively with

661
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:07,760
people who had had abduction and

662
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:13,330
experience or related events his first

663
00:29:20,140 --> 00:29:16,730
advice in terms of them considering it

664
00:29:22,060 --> 00:29:20,150
is are you short even if you feel

665
00:29:23,710 --> 00:29:22,070
consciously you you want to know what

666
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:23,720
went on you want to relive it very

667
00:29:29,260 --> 00:29:26,570
laudatory you may be brought face to

668
00:29:33,150 --> 00:29:29,270
face with a terrifying experience or

669
00:29:36,550 --> 00:29:33,160
something that will make you sad or

670
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:36,560
blast the positive memory that you think

671
00:29:44,050 --> 00:29:41,210
you have of this event so this is not a

672
00:29:47,740 --> 00:29:44,060
time-sensitive matter you can decide to

673
00:29:52,300 --> 00:29:47,750
do it years from now I I waited several

674
00:29:54,520 --> 00:29:52,310
years to undergo regressive hypnosis for

675
00:29:57,790 --> 00:29:54,530
my UFO sighting that I had had with my

676
00:30:01,270 --> 00:29:57,800
sister who had an abduction experience

677
00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:01,280
as part of that sighting my concern my

678
00:30:08,470 --> 00:30:04,480
curiosity was did this happen to me too

679
00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:08,480
when I did it I was ready for it and I

680
00:30:15,660 --> 00:30:11,810
did three separate hypnotic regressions

681
00:30:20,230 --> 00:30:15,670
over a year or two with three different

682
00:30:23,340 --> 00:30:20,240
individuals but that was my choice on my

683
00:30:25,780 --> 00:30:23,350
time I should also say that the memory

684
00:30:28,360 --> 00:30:25,790
that I had was the memory that was

685
00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:28,370
confirmed and nothing has rattled

686
00:30:32,770 --> 00:30:30,530
anything else loose even though I've

687
00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:32,780
been deeply involved in this field for

688
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:36,050
decades so I'm fairly confident and that

689
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:38,930
that was it for me but respect your

690
00:30:42,010 --> 00:30:40,610
feelings I guess is what I'm saying and

691
00:30:46,510 --> 00:30:42,020
you can come back to this at another

692
00:30:48,220 --> 00:30:46,520
time it is rough in a way that the

693
00:30:51,100 --> 00:30:48,230
people that you had the experience with

694
00:30:52,990 --> 00:30:51,110
are as reticent as they are you've got

695
00:30:55,370 --> 00:30:53,000
to cut him slack perfectly natural

696
00:30:58,100 --> 00:30:55,380
reaction for some folks

697
00:30:59,990 --> 00:30:58,110
at least that's something better I think

698
00:31:03,860 --> 00:31:00,000
on a certain level then having had the

699
00:31:04,909 --> 00:31:03,870
experience all by yourself where the did

700
00:31:07,539 --> 00:31:04,919
it didn't it

701
00:31:10,039 --> 00:31:07,549
that kind of feeling doesn't help right

702
00:31:12,230 --> 00:31:10,049
Ryan I know you have to go so just one

703
00:31:14,330 --> 00:31:12,240
one quick question last question do you

704
00:31:18,970 --> 00:31:14,340
feel as though you had any missing time

705
00:31:22,940 --> 00:31:18,980
in this whole event yeah definitely yep

706
00:31:25,340 --> 00:31:22,950
the last time that I looked at a time

707
00:31:27,380 --> 00:31:25,350
source I'd say 7:15 or 7:30 I remember

708
00:31:30,470 --> 00:31:27,390
it being well before 8:00 and then when

709
00:31:32,600 --> 00:31:30,480
I came consciousness it was closer to

710
00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:32,610
8:30 know what I want to say it was like

711
00:31:37,610 --> 00:31:36,570
8 8 8 23 yeah well that's that makes it

712
00:31:40,130 --> 00:31:37,620
even more interesting

713
00:31:41,659 --> 00:31:40,140
well hey Ryan thank you so much I

714
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:41,669
appreciate yes thank you very much

715
00:31:46,490 --> 00:31:44,130
driving up here yes no and and Ryan

716
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:46,500
thank you very much also and I think I

717
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:50,370
speak for many of Martin's listeners it

718
00:31:55,039 --> 00:31:52,770
takes courage to share these events and

719
00:31:56,659 --> 00:31:55,049
you know bless your heart and good luck

720
00:32:00,409 --> 00:31:56,669
in all things in the future thank you

721
00:32:02,659 --> 00:32:00,419
very much that if you folks want to

722
00:32:04,100 --> 00:32:02,669
bring me on again and ask me more

723
00:32:06,830 --> 00:32:04,110
questions about it and I'd be more than

724
00:32:08,899 --> 00:32:06,840
happy to do that yeah if you have a

725
00:32:10,730 --> 00:32:08,909
point and I've never would ever push you

726
00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:10,740
for this but if you do have a point

727
00:32:15,950 --> 00:32:13,610
where you do the hypnotherapy and you

728
00:32:16,820 --> 00:32:15,960
find out more about it and you want to

729
00:32:18,919 --> 00:32:16,830
talk about it

730
00:32:24,190 --> 00:32:18,929
you're welcome back on yes thank you

731
00:32:31,779 --> 00:32:28,549
alright so now I'm bow so that was

732
00:32:35,330 --> 00:32:31,789
interesting huh Peter very much so yeah

733
00:32:37,669 --> 00:32:35,340
and just a local guy that he saw a UFO

734
00:32:40,090 --> 00:32:37,679
hat in a car on a bagel shop and that's

735
00:32:42,799 --> 00:32:40,100
not one of the conversation was in have

736
00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:42,809
absolutely nothing to gain by going

737
00:32:50,210 --> 00:32:45,120
public with this even in the private way

738
00:32:52,430 --> 00:32:50,220
that he did so I I salute the everyday

739
00:32:54,649 --> 00:32:52,440
courage of everybody that has ever

740
00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:54,659
crossed that line and said you know on

741
00:32:58,370 --> 00:32:56,490
I'm not going to keep this to myself

742
00:33:02,149 --> 00:32:58,380
even if I were going to protect my

743
00:33:04,039 --> 00:33:02,159
identity in the course of it I I need to

744
00:33:07,039 --> 00:33:04,049
share this or I think I should share it

745
00:33:08,450 --> 00:33:07,049
yeah yeah the last time I had a

746
00:33:13,700 --> 00:33:08,460
situation like that

747
00:33:15,950 --> 00:33:13,710
it was a woman casually talking about oh

748
00:33:17,359 --> 00:33:15,960
I know where you live Sebago Maine this

749
00:33:20,419 --> 00:33:17,369
is when I was living in Sebago and she

750
00:33:21,759 --> 00:33:20,429
said yeah I had a UFO experience there

751
00:33:24,379 --> 00:33:21,769
and I said what what did you just say

752
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:24,389
and she was gonna be on the show but

753
00:33:30,710 --> 00:33:27,090
left me high and dry she'd never never

754
00:33:32,840 --> 00:33:30,720
picked up the phone so I understand I

755
00:33:34,310 --> 00:33:32,850
understand and I don't hold that against

756
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:34,320
people and as a matter of fact I wrote

757
00:33:38,419 --> 00:33:36,090
Ryan this morning I said hey you know

758
00:33:39,799 --> 00:33:38,429
can you confirm you're gonna be here but

759
00:33:41,930 --> 00:33:39,809
you know because a lot of times people

760
00:33:43,009 --> 00:33:41,940
get cold feet they get nervous sure you

761
00:33:49,940 --> 00:33:43,019
actually talked about it for the first

762
00:33:52,820 --> 00:33:49,950
time publicly and so Peter we are gonna

763
00:33:55,940 --> 00:33:52,830
be touching on a couple of things and

764
00:33:58,190 --> 00:33:55,950
one of them is a Forrestal I know you

765
00:34:00,109 --> 00:33:58,200
have an interest in that in James

766
00:34:04,460 --> 00:34:00,119
Forrestal and I know he was the first

767
00:34:07,909 --> 00:34:04,470
secretary of defense I believe that and

768
00:34:09,950 --> 00:34:07,919
then he was I didn't know the exact

769
00:34:12,770 --> 00:34:09,960
extent that he was involved in UFOs I

770
00:34:14,530 --> 00:34:12,780
know that in 1994 he was involved in

771
00:34:17,720 --> 00:34:14,540
talking about Roswell when the Air Force

772
00:34:21,559 --> 00:34:17,730
wait what year did you just say teen 94

773
00:34:25,069 --> 00:34:21,569
I believe didn't he he died in 1949 I'm

774
00:34:28,639 --> 00:34:25,079
sorry what am I thinking of his name I

775
00:34:31,010 --> 00:34:28,649
guess came up in 1994 during the Roswell

776
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:31,020
talk is that is that do I have that

777
00:34:39,619 --> 00:34:34,530
right well his name has been associated

778
00:34:43,879 --> 00:34:39,629
with the subject indirectly since was

779
00:34:47,530 --> 00:34:43,889
will research began in the 1980s led by

780
00:34:51,500 --> 00:34:47,540
Stanton T Friedman Forrest saw himself

781
00:34:54,289 --> 00:34:51,510
was an extraordinary man whose life is

782
00:34:57,410 --> 00:34:54,299
very much worth studying and whose death

783
00:35:00,200 --> 00:34:57,420
allegedly by his own hand we history

784
00:35:05,630 --> 00:35:00,210
records that he killed himself on May

785
00:35:09,500 --> 00:35:05,640
22nd of 1949 and that's what the public

786
00:35:12,079 --> 00:35:09,510
buys generally speaking I first became

787
00:35:16,039 --> 00:35:12,089
interested in him to the point of

788
00:35:19,860 --> 00:35:16,049
obsession for quite a long time in 1987

789
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:19,870
because that summer was when

790
00:35:27,420 --> 00:35:23,410
the so-called majestic 12 Eisenhower

791
00:35:29,850 --> 00:35:27,430
briefing document became public it was

792
00:35:33,420 --> 00:35:29,860
as I know you know and many of your

793
00:35:37,230 --> 00:35:33,430
listeners I'm sure a eight-page document

794
00:35:39,630 --> 00:35:37,240
from allegedly from 1952 purporting to

795
00:35:42,750 --> 00:35:39,640
be a briefing document to

796
00:35:45,720 --> 00:35:42,760
president-elect eisenhower informing him

797
00:35:50,070 --> 00:35:45,730
of the formation of a special highly

798
00:35:53,430 --> 00:35:50,080
classified Study Group in 1947 following

799
00:35:58,170 --> 00:35:53,440
immediately following on the Roswell

800
00:36:00,810 --> 00:35:58,180
crash mj-12 the twelve refers to the

801
00:36:04,410 --> 00:36:00,820
number of individuals that were involved

802
00:36:08,270 --> 00:36:04,420
in that first wave of this study group

803
00:36:10,590 --> 00:36:08,280
and one of them was James Forrestal a

804
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:10,600
peanut if I just interrupt you here Ned

805
00:36:17,460 --> 00:36:15,330
no no and they just want to apologize I

806
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:17,470
meant to say that there was a movie

807
00:36:23,370 --> 00:36:20,650
about him in 1994 that's what I was I

808
00:36:27,600 --> 00:36:23,380
don't know how I'd mix that up that's ok

809
00:36:29,190 --> 00:36:27,610
was dead he was portrayed in basically

810
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:29,200
yes that's right and I believe that was

811
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:33,490
some paul davids terrific Rosewall yes

812
00:36:41,490 --> 00:36:38,170
which really was a pioneering film and

813
00:36:44,520 --> 00:36:41,500
paul is to be saluted for it it did as

814
00:36:49,940 --> 00:36:44,530
good a job as any film ever made on the

815
00:36:53,820 --> 00:36:49,950
UFO subject to address the damage that

816
00:36:56,750 --> 00:36:53,830
can be done to a person's life who has

817
00:37:00,450 --> 00:36:56,760
the courage to come forward in this case

818
00:37:02,550 --> 00:37:00,460
major Jesse Marcel senior who at the

819
00:37:05,550 --> 00:37:02,560
time of the events in the summer of 47

820
00:37:09,630 --> 00:37:05,560
was the base intelligence officer on the

821
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:09,640
old Roswell Army Air Base who was the

822
00:37:19,530 --> 00:37:17,410
one who the base commander authorized to

823
00:37:22,770 --> 00:37:19,540
release the statement that a flying

824
00:37:26,430 --> 00:37:22,780
saucer to use a then terminology had

825
00:37:31,080 --> 00:37:26,440
crashed which he did general Blanchard

826
00:37:34,620 --> 00:37:31,090
Butch Blanchard was a tough no-nonsense

827
00:37:37,140 --> 00:37:34,630
veteran of World War two like Marcel

828
00:37:40,830 --> 00:37:37,150
himself who is a pilot who had been shot

829
00:37:43,020 --> 00:37:40,840
down during the war ended up as POWs

830
00:37:47,010 --> 00:37:43,030
the one thing that Blanchard didn't do

831
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:47,020
before authorizing Marcel to make that

832
00:37:52,530 --> 00:37:49,570
world-shaking announcement was clear it

833
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:52,540
with the Pentagon which for me is one of

834
00:37:59,940 --> 00:37:54,930
those great moments in American history

835
00:38:01,620 --> 00:37:59,950
unfortunately within 24 hours the big

836
00:38:04,710 --> 00:38:01,630
shots went ballistic

837
00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:04,720
and of course got in Blanchard's face

838
00:38:11,490 --> 00:38:09,370
who ordered Marcel to basically

839
00:38:12,960 --> 00:38:11,500
humiliated himself in front of the world

840
00:38:15,240 --> 00:38:12,970
something I don't think he ever really

841
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:15,250
recovered from and to pose with

842
00:38:22,110 --> 00:38:18,370
fragments of a mogul weather balloon and

843
00:38:25,020 --> 00:38:22,120
say that this was what he mistook for a

844
00:38:28,620 --> 00:38:25,030
giant honking debris field filled with

845
00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:28,630
extraordinary metal and bodies of a

846
00:38:34,950 --> 00:38:31,210
number of non-human beings and allegedly

847
00:38:38,070 --> 00:38:34,960
one living one with that as brief

848
00:38:40,950 --> 00:38:38,080
backstory there is an actor who briefly

849
00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:40,960
plays the part of James Forrestal on a

850
00:38:48,750 --> 00:38:43,930
quick visit to New Mexico looking

851
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:48,760
through a glass partition at this non

852
00:38:55,050 --> 00:38:51,690
human being registering a look of

853
00:38:57,420 --> 00:38:55,060
tremendous concern and giving rise to

854
00:38:59,640 --> 00:38:57,430
the idea that the stress was too much

855
00:39:01,200 --> 00:38:59,650
for him it was a brief appearance but

856
00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:01,210
that's where a certain amount of the UFO

857
00:39:10,170 --> 00:39:07,450
UFO related mythology legend so to say

858
00:39:15,180 --> 00:39:10,180
of forestalls involvement what happened

859
00:39:18,690 --> 00:39:15,190
with me was in 87 there was a a very

860
00:39:21,150 --> 00:39:18,700
important UFO Congress it was 87 it was

861
00:39:23,550 --> 00:39:21,160
that summer 40th anniversary of Roswell

862
00:39:26,130 --> 00:39:23,560
Kenneth Arnold modern age of UFO

863
00:39:30,030 --> 00:39:26,140
sightings and it was held at American

864
00:39:33,150 --> 00:39:30,040
University in Washington DC the speaker

865
00:39:37,170 --> 00:39:33,160
who had the biggest impact on me with

866
00:39:39,060 --> 00:39:37,180
Stanton T Friedman Stan gave as good a

867
00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:39,070
research paper as I have ever heard on

868
00:39:44,170 --> 00:39:41,050
anything in my entire life

869
00:39:46,950 --> 00:39:44,180
and it was a real factor in

870
00:39:52,359 --> 00:39:46,960
by deciding to commit myself

871
00:39:53,950 --> 00:39:52,369
professionally to this work and move

872
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:53,960
into what will laughingly call my

873
00:40:00,190 --> 00:39:57,410
serious career in ufology it was called

874
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:00,200
The Secret Life of Donald K Menzel again

875
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:02,690
as many of your listeners know Menzel

876
00:40:08,500 --> 00:40:06,290
was a he was essentially professor

877
00:40:11,230 --> 00:40:08,510
emeritus of astronomy he they had

878
00:40:14,170 --> 00:40:11,240
astronomer at Harvard and as such had

879
00:40:17,339 --> 00:40:14,180
huge standing in both the astronomical

880
00:40:20,290 --> 00:40:17,349
community and in the academic community

881
00:40:22,540 --> 00:40:20,300
what Stan was able to do and nobody had

882
00:40:24,579 --> 00:40:22,550
done it before was get permission from

883
00:40:27,549 --> 00:40:24,589
Harvard to see all of his papers there

884
00:40:30,220 --> 00:40:27,559
to get permission from his widow to see

885
00:40:32,380 --> 00:40:30,230
papers that she personally held and to

886
00:40:34,510 --> 00:40:32,390
get permission to go through all of his

887
00:40:37,059 --> 00:40:34,520
records in the National Archives and

888
00:40:39,700 --> 00:40:37,069
what Stan proved with beyond any

889
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:39,710
reasonable doubt was this man lived a

890
00:40:42,630 --> 00:40:40,490
double life

891
00:40:46,270 --> 00:40:42,640
he was an asset of the national security

892
00:40:50,650 --> 00:40:46,280
community in the United States and the

893
00:40:52,210 --> 00:40:50,660
first UFO debunker and he did tremendous

894
00:40:54,430 --> 00:40:52,220
damage to the truth

895
00:40:56,980 --> 00:40:54,440
he was so to say the godfather of philip

896
00:40:58,870 --> 00:40:56,990
glass the person most americans who are

897
00:41:02,170 --> 00:40:58,880
knowledgeable about the subject of ufos

898
00:41:06,430 --> 00:41:02,180
associated with debunking and to cut to

899
00:41:08,530 --> 00:41:06,440
the chase i had received a copy of mj-12

900
00:41:10,450 --> 00:41:08,540
some months before making me feel quite

901
00:41:12,069 --> 00:41:10,460
like an insider from somebody whose name

902
00:41:14,740 --> 00:41:12,079
I won't mention right now but that

903
00:41:16,720 --> 00:41:14,750
summer it all broke and it was as big a

904
00:41:19,960 --> 00:41:16,730
topic of conversation at that conference

905
00:41:22,630 --> 00:41:19,970
as anything and I decided that I was

906
00:41:26,170 --> 00:41:22,640
going to do a research project of one of

907
00:41:28,990 --> 00:41:26,180
these 12 individuals all of them tops in

908
00:41:33,010 --> 00:41:29,000
their field individuals who certainly

909
00:41:34,480 --> 00:41:33,020
would have been considered to serve be

910
00:41:37,359 --> 00:41:34,490
surrounding the President of the United

911
00:41:40,660 --> 00:41:37,369
States to try to figure what the hell to

912
00:41:43,329 --> 00:41:40,670
do relative to this incursion from parts

913
00:41:46,319 --> 00:41:43,339
unknown I had it down to several people

914
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:46,329
including Forrestal and Vannevar Bush

915
00:41:54,220 --> 00:41:51,920
for me somebody who is endlessly

916
00:41:56,710 --> 00:41:54,230
fascinating in the late 40s if you were

917
00:41:58,520 --> 00:41:56,720
to pick up a copy of who's who

918
00:42:04,140 --> 00:41:58,530
bushes

919
00:42:07,500 --> 00:42:04,150
honorariums and degrees and titles and

920
00:42:10,530 --> 00:42:07,510
business in the scientific community

921
00:42:14,130 --> 00:42:10,540
were were mind blowing two and a half

922
00:42:15,690 --> 00:42:14,140
pages worth he had been Franklin

923
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:15,700
Roosevelt's science and technology

924
00:42:21,810 --> 00:42:18,850
adviser then Truman's he was the man who

925
00:42:25,500 --> 00:42:21,820
brew through man on the Manhattan

926
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:25,510
Project the day that Roosevelt died he

927
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:29,290
was he was a phenomenal character and I

928
00:42:33,690 --> 00:42:31,090
I remember shortly after the conference

929
00:42:35,550 --> 00:42:33,700
sitting down with my parents both very

930
00:42:38,430 --> 00:42:35,560
politically aware people and asking them

931
00:42:39,720 --> 00:42:38,440
if they had a take on you know which way

932
00:42:42,240 --> 00:42:39,730
I should go with this it was going to

933
00:42:45,470 --> 00:42:42,250
take considerable time and work and my

934
00:42:49,950 --> 00:42:45,480
mom said do forristall i said okay why

935
00:42:52,830 --> 00:42:49,960
she said you have no idea how important

936
00:42:55,440 --> 00:42:52,840
he was to us during World War two the

937
00:42:57,780 --> 00:42:55,450
impact the positive impact he had on our

938
00:43:00,300 --> 00:42:57,790
winning the war he was absolutely

939
00:43:01,099 --> 00:43:00,310
charismatic from the early 40s until he

940
00:43:03,540 --> 00:43:01,109
died

941
00:43:05,190 --> 00:43:03,550
next to Truman his name was in the paper

942
00:43:09,620 --> 00:43:05,200
more than anyone and he had tremendous

943
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:09,630
courage and then she said he is also

944
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:13,090
very handsome very charismatic and his

945
00:43:20,010 --> 00:43:14,770
high school girl had a crush on him and

946
00:43:22,710 --> 00:43:20,020
I thought well that's that and I started

947
00:43:25,560 --> 00:43:22,720
to research his life and equally

948
00:43:28,470 --> 00:43:25,570
important his death and started to draw

949
00:43:31,770 --> 00:43:28,480
parallels and then put it on a very

950
00:43:34,170 --> 00:43:31,780
strict timeline and it became the most

951
00:43:35,940 --> 00:43:34,180
accomplished research project I had ever

952
00:43:38,730 --> 00:43:35,950
taken on I'm still very proud of the

953
00:43:41,370 --> 00:43:38,740
work of the initial findings that I had

954
00:43:45,560 --> 00:43:41,380
and I kept at it kept coming and going I

955
00:43:47,880 --> 00:43:45,570
didn't give a talk on it until 2004 but

956
00:43:50,970 --> 00:43:47,890
every few years I kept picking it up

957
00:43:54,930 --> 00:43:50,980
again and that happened about two years

958
00:43:58,740 --> 00:43:54,940
ago and I've continued to fill in blanks

959
00:44:01,710 --> 00:43:58,750
to tighten my presentations and articles

960
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:01,720
on the subject and have actually as of

961
00:44:08,550 --> 00:44:06,010
last year taken a step outside of all of

962
00:44:10,769 --> 00:44:08,560
the presentations I've done over the

963
00:44:12,870 --> 00:44:10,779
decades I have a

964
00:44:15,479 --> 00:44:12,880
of theater I've had it since I was a kid

965
00:44:17,989 --> 00:44:15,489
I had the privilege of working

966
00:44:20,929 --> 00:44:17,999
off-broadway for quite a number of years

967
00:44:24,209 --> 00:44:20,939
as a manager of one of New York City's

968
00:44:26,099 --> 00:44:24,219
finest repertory companies work with

969
00:44:29,339 --> 00:44:26,109
Academy Award winners and Tony Award

970
00:44:31,109 --> 00:44:29,349
winners studied acting for years

971
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:31,119
although I've never wanted to be an

972
00:44:39,439 --> 00:44:32,890
actor I loved the craft and loved people

973
00:44:46,649 --> 00:44:44,399
staged to act dramatic reading of the

974
00:44:51,479 --> 00:44:46,659
life and death of James Forrestal on

975
00:44:53,689 --> 00:44:51,489
stage with accompanied by about a

976
00:44:56,759 --> 00:44:53,699
hundred and fifty images that flash

977
00:44:57,390 --> 00:44:56,769
behind me as I speak with an

978
00:44:59,909 --> 00:44:57,400
intermission

979
00:45:02,099 --> 00:44:59,919
I've workshopped it a little bit and I'm

980
00:45:04,679 --> 00:45:02,109
at a point right now of okay this is

981
00:45:06,719 --> 00:45:04,689
good I can tie this up and it it gives

982
00:45:07,949 --> 00:45:06,729
me access to an audience that normally

983
00:45:11,809 --> 00:45:07,959
would not be interested in going to a

984
00:45:15,029 --> 00:45:11,819
quote-unquote UFO lecture what I'm

985
00:45:18,359 --> 00:45:15,039
toying with right now and I have a

986
00:45:20,759 --> 00:45:18,369
person in mind to approach to be a

987
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:20,769
collaborator on this I've never written

988
00:45:26,669 --> 00:45:24,729
a play and I'm very uncomfortable in a

989
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:26,679
way with taking all of the factual

990
00:45:32,489 --> 00:45:29,650
material and extrapolating on it

991
00:45:34,229 --> 00:45:32,499
creating dialogue rather even if it's

992
00:45:38,640 --> 00:45:34,239
style log that I think might have been

993
00:45:41,039 --> 00:45:38,650
said and creating a a drama in two acts

994
00:45:43,019 --> 00:45:41,049
that would be one person play and the

995
00:45:46,319 --> 00:45:43,029
only way I could manage it after a lot

996
00:45:48,479 --> 00:45:46,329
of consideration would be not that I

997
00:45:51,089 --> 00:45:48,489
would be taking part in it other than as

998
00:45:54,089 --> 00:45:51,099
the writer and certainly helping the

999
00:45:58,469 --> 00:45:54,099
director etc but it'll be written for

1000
00:46:01,499 --> 00:45:58,479
professional actor and the actor would

1001
00:46:02,069 --> 00:46:01,509
be playing James Forrestal after he's

1002
00:46:06,659 --> 00:46:02,079
dead

1003
00:46:08,939 --> 00:46:06,669
looking back um having just said that

1004
00:46:10,979 --> 00:46:08,949
alone I think you realize this is quite

1005
00:46:13,199 --> 00:46:10,989
a challenge and something I will or

1006
00:46:14,939 --> 00:46:13,209
won't do I'm kind of in negotiation

1007
00:46:19,140 --> 00:46:14,949
right now about it and we'll see how it

1008
00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:19,150
goes it's again I started my life as a

1009
00:46:24,490 --> 00:46:22,569
painter I'm a creative person I've

1010
00:46:27,540 --> 00:46:24,500
always tried to apply that creativity

1011
00:46:30,820 --> 00:46:27,550
doing quality well-informed

1012
00:46:33,070 --> 00:46:30,830
presentations and articles and this

1013
00:46:36,220 --> 00:46:33,080
would just be taking it one step beyond

1014
00:46:39,880 --> 00:46:36,230
as far as I'm concerned Wow really

1015
00:46:43,080 --> 00:46:39,890
interesting now I know you know whenever

1016
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:43,090
James Forrestal comes up there's

1017
00:46:47,800 --> 00:46:46,400
questions on whether he was pushed out

1018
00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:47,810
the window whether he jumped out the

1019
00:46:55,540 --> 00:46:51,050
window I understand you know he suffered

1020
00:46:58,630 --> 00:46:55,550
from depression and as far as I know to

1021
00:47:02,590 --> 00:46:58,640
have that right yes

1022
00:47:05,350 --> 00:47:02,600
I feel certainly a contributing aspect

1023
00:47:07,690 --> 00:47:05,360
of that depression which was observed

1024
00:47:11,380 --> 00:47:07,700
not just by people who cared about him

1025
00:47:13,660 --> 00:47:11,390
but in several cases by people who did

1026
00:47:16,240 --> 00:47:13,670
not care about him but commented in

1027
00:47:20,350 --> 00:47:16,250
their memoirs or their diaries etc go

1028
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:20,360
back to the summer autumn well the

1029
00:47:27,970 --> 00:47:24,890
autumn of 1949 he was sworn in as our

1030
00:47:30,700 --> 00:47:27,980
first secretary of defense after having

1031
00:47:34,660 --> 00:47:30,710
created the Department of Defense not as

1032
00:47:37,810 --> 00:47:34,670
part of a committee after the war Harry

1033
00:47:39,850 --> 00:47:37,820
Truman so impressed with how he had run

1034
00:47:41,950 --> 00:47:39,860
the Department of Navy and he ended up

1035
00:47:46,450 --> 00:47:41,960
being secretary of Navy by the end of

1036
00:47:49,180 --> 00:47:46,460
the war has Forrestal individually to

1037
00:47:50,470 --> 00:47:49,190
dismantle the old War Department because

1038
00:47:54,490 --> 00:47:50,480
that's what we called it since the

1039
00:47:57,640 --> 00:47:54,500
Revolution and create this new thing a

1040
00:48:01,560 --> 00:47:57,650
modern Department of Defense which he

1041
00:48:04,630 --> 00:48:01,570
did he was sworn in as defense secretary

1042
00:48:08,560 --> 00:48:04,640
six and a half weeks or so after Roswell

1043
00:48:11,530 --> 00:48:08,570
if you read the job description of the

1044
00:48:14,020 --> 00:48:11,540
department the Secretary of Defense he

1045
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:14,030
is next to the president he knows

1046
00:48:19,690 --> 00:48:17,210
everything and in those weeks that would

1047
00:48:21,520 --> 00:48:19,700
have followed his being sworn in he

1048
00:48:23,050 --> 00:48:21,530
would have learned everything that had

1049
00:48:25,210 --> 00:48:23,060
happened in the previous month and a

1050
00:48:27,600 --> 00:48:25,220
half it would have all been on his

1051
00:48:32,170 --> 00:48:27,610
shoulders he is now in charge of the

1052
00:48:35,010 --> 00:48:32,180
greatest military conglomerate ever on

1053
00:48:38,660 --> 00:48:35,020
earth that we know about for sure and

1054
00:48:42,199 --> 00:48:38,670
yet nothing that he could do or

1055
00:48:45,709 --> 00:48:42,209
affected what had happened I am here to

1056
00:48:50,179 --> 00:48:45,719
tell you and I I don't usually do this

1057
00:48:53,239 --> 00:48:50,189
I'm not somebody who you know tosses out

1058
00:48:56,539 --> 00:48:53,249
absolutes but years and years and years

1059
00:48:59,269 --> 00:48:56,549
of research have convinced me beyond any

1060
00:49:00,910 --> 00:48:59,279
reasonable doubt that not only was he

1061
00:49:04,219 --> 00:49:00,920
murdered

1062
00:49:05,900 --> 00:49:04,229
he understood once he had had his

1063
00:49:09,319 --> 00:49:05,910
breakdown and he did have a profound

1064
00:49:13,789 --> 00:49:09,329
nervous breakdown it manifested itself

1065
00:49:17,719 --> 00:49:13,799
on March 17th of 1949 the afternoon that

1066
00:49:19,719 --> 00:49:17,729
he stepped down from office having

1067
00:49:22,489 --> 00:49:19,729
worked in crisis intervention for years

1068
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:22,499
to be blunt in New York City on the

1069
00:49:28,489 --> 00:49:25,130
busiest suicide hotline in America I

1070
00:49:30,910 --> 00:49:28,499
know a fair amount about the dynamics of

1071
00:49:34,339 --> 00:49:30,920
the intense depression that leads to

1072
00:49:37,370 --> 00:49:34,349
somebody being so low in their heart and

1073
00:49:40,929 --> 00:49:37,380
soul that ending their life is

1074
00:49:44,419 --> 00:49:40,939
preferable to keep living he understood

1075
00:49:47,439 --> 00:49:44,429
better than anybody that once he had had

1076
00:49:49,759 --> 00:49:47,449
this breakdown that there were

1077
00:49:55,689 --> 00:49:49,769
individuals very powerful individuals

1078
00:49:59,359 --> 00:49:55,699
arrayed around Ari Truman who knew that

1079
00:50:02,140 --> 00:49:59,369
this man had to die they couldn't risk

1080
00:50:08,989 --> 00:50:02,150
him having a relapse and again this is

1081
00:50:11,839 --> 00:50:08,999
1949 not 2019 in 1949 I think it's fair

1082
00:50:14,660 --> 00:50:11,849
to say let's say one person in a hundred

1083
00:50:18,709 --> 00:50:14,670
in America knew somebody who might have

1084
00:50:20,269 --> 00:50:18,719
seen a psychiatrist maybe now one person

1085
00:50:24,609 --> 00:50:20,279
in 100 in America

1086
00:50:27,559 --> 00:50:24,619
one person 500 in America knows somebody

1087
00:50:31,569 --> 00:50:27,569
who doesn't know somebody who has seen a

1088
00:50:34,910 --> 00:50:31,579
therapist or psychiatrist or something

1089
00:50:39,259 --> 00:50:34,920
this man and he understood it and I

1090
00:50:41,299 --> 00:50:39,269
sadly was able to document several times

1091
00:50:43,039 --> 00:50:41,309
in those intervening days before he was

1092
00:50:45,499 --> 00:50:43,049
institutionalized at Bethesda Naval

1093
00:50:47,449 --> 00:50:45,509
Hospital where he did try to kill

1094
00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:47,459
himself like a good Roman soldier threw

1095
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:50,729
himself on his sword but he stopped him

1096
00:51:02,599 --> 00:50:51,690
he

1097
00:51:04,579 --> 00:51:02,609
question about that okay well we have to

1098
00:51:08,750 --> 00:51:04,589
stop right now and we're gonna go back

1099
00:51:11,569 --> 00:51:08,760
to going out the window after this break

1100
00:51:18,460 --> 00:51:11,579
so hang on everyone for these messages

1101
00:51:23,510 --> 00:51:20,559
you're clear you have three minutes

1102
00:51:26,120 --> 00:51:23,520
alright thank you Peter we'll go right

1103
00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:26,130
back to that when we get back yeah for

1104
00:51:29,960 --> 00:51:27,450
now I'm just gonna see if we have any

1105
00:51:31,460 --> 00:51:29,970
questions and we will take calls I

1106
00:51:35,569 --> 00:51:31,470
thought maybe in the second hour we'd go

1107
00:51:37,309 --> 00:51:35,579
into tosche or about but and you know

1108
00:51:44,630 --> 00:51:37,319
Wilber after we wrap this up a course

1109
00:51:48,380 --> 00:51:44,640
but as far as as Forrestal goes I don't

1110
00:51:50,059 --> 00:51:48,390
want to I want to be able to go back

1111
00:51:56,510 --> 00:51:50,069
after the break and continue where we

1112
00:51:59,960 --> 00:51:56,520
were but a lot of what I read about him

1113
00:52:02,150 --> 00:51:59,970
says you know exhaustion I guess he

1114
00:52:04,160 --> 00:52:02,160
really really put himself totally into

1115
00:52:09,109 --> 00:52:04,170
his job until he just became totally

1116
00:52:12,140 --> 00:52:09,119
exhausted Forrestal was an extraordinary

1117
00:52:15,710 --> 00:52:12,150
man who's an ultimate team player he was

1118
00:52:19,150 --> 00:52:15,720
if there was a living person that f

1119
00:52:22,490 --> 00:52:19,160
scott Fitzgerald based his seminal II

1120
00:52:26,510 --> 00:52:22,500
famous novel The Great Gatsby on and it

1121
00:52:28,069 --> 00:52:26,520
was an invention of his it would have

1122
00:52:31,099 --> 00:52:28,079
been forced all he's an ultimate

1123
00:52:35,000 --> 00:52:31,109
self-made man grew up in a small town in

1124
00:52:37,309 --> 00:52:35,010
upstate New York but he wanted all the

1125
00:52:39,260 --> 00:52:37,319
good things in life he got himself a

1126
00:52:41,569 --> 00:52:39,270
scholarship to Dartmouth and transferred

1127
00:52:43,819 --> 00:52:41,579
to Princeton tried to get into the fight

1128
00:52:47,359 --> 00:52:43,829
in World War one became a millionaire

1129
00:52:50,809 --> 00:52:47,369
equivalent on Wall Street married a very

1130
00:52:53,359 --> 00:52:50,819
beautiful Society woman a editor at

1131
00:52:56,599 --> 00:52:53,369
Vogue former Ziegfeld showgirl looked

1132
00:53:00,230 --> 00:52:56,609
like he had it all but was a serial

1133
00:53:04,970 --> 00:53:00,240
philanderer again incredibly attractive

1134
00:53:08,170 --> 00:53:04,980
to women a professional level

1135
00:53:11,359 --> 00:53:08,180
tennis player and golfer amateur boxer

1136
00:53:13,609 --> 00:53:11,369
and ultimately one of Roosevelt's

1137
00:53:16,579 --> 00:53:13,619
dollar-a-year men who gave up their

1138
00:53:18,380 --> 00:53:16,589
careers and came to Washington to help

1139
00:53:20,420 --> 00:53:18,390
us get out of the depression he just

1140
00:53:22,550 --> 00:53:20,430
never left he stayed in public service

1141
00:53:27,920 --> 00:53:22,560
for the rest of his life my point being

1142
00:53:34,250 --> 00:53:27,930
here that he had a character flaw he was

1143
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:34,260
unable to truly open up to anyone even

1144
00:53:40,670 --> 00:53:38,130
his mistresses or his wife he was an

1145
00:53:43,160 --> 00:53:40,680
incredibly lonely person inside the

1146
00:53:46,250 --> 00:53:43,170
ultimate tough guy the ultimate alpha

1147
00:53:50,540 --> 00:53:46,260
male who you know studied Greek poetry

1148
00:53:53,420 --> 00:53:50,550
was very well read in the classics and I

1149
00:53:56,569 --> 00:53:53,430
think the realization of this other

1150
00:53:58,900 --> 00:53:56,579
intelligence that was now among us with

1151
00:54:01,760 --> 00:53:58,910
advanced technology and that it all

1152
00:54:05,180 --> 00:54:01,770
rested on his shoulders to do something

1153
00:54:09,380 --> 00:54:05,190
about it he had a very bad habit of

1154
00:54:11,930 --> 00:54:09,390
personalizing his business professional

1155
00:54:13,430 --> 00:54:11,940
successes and failures most of us you

1156
00:54:15,770 --> 00:54:13,440
know we'll take it on the chin every

1157
00:54:16,940 --> 00:54:15,780
once in a while but when we go home you

1158
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:16,950
know we'll have a beer and asked what's

1159
00:54:22,670 --> 00:54:19,890
on TV or the equivalent yeah he was

1160
00:54:25,579 --> 00:54:22,680
unable to and it ate him up it ate him

1161
00:54:28,520 --> 00:54:25,589
up and when push came to shove and he

1162
00:54:30,410 --> 00:54:28,530
lost truman's trust unfortunately

1163
00:54:34,700 --> 00:54:30,420
because there were people around Truman

1164
00:54:37,819 --> 00:54:34,710
who turned the president against him

1165
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:37,829
that the excuse being that he might not

1166
00:54:42,050 --> 00:54:39,599
be as loyal as he appeared to be for

1167
00:54:43,609 --> 00:54:42,060
reasons I could go into but obviously we

1168
00:54:45,349 --> 00:54:43,619
could talk about him you know for 10

1169
00:54:48,230 --> 00:54:45,359
shows in a row all right we got to go

1170
00:54:53,569 --> 00:54:48,240
back in yep all right I'll count you

1171
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:53,579
down in five four three two all right

1172
00:54:58,010 --> 00:54:56,010
everyone welcome back this is Martin

1173
00:55:00,319 --> 00:54:58,020
Willis with podcast UFO my guest is

1174
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:00,329
peter robbins we're talking about James

1175
00:55:06,890 --> 00:55:03,210
Forrestal and before the break we were

1176
00:55:09,319 --> 00:55:06,900
talking about the poor gentleman going

1177
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:09,329
out the window looks like 16 floors or

1178
00:55:15,609 --> 00:55:13,010
something like that and you you

1179
00:55:18,620 --> 00:55:15,619
personally feel fairly comfortable that

1180
00:55:21,469 --> 00:55:18,630
it was not a suicide

1181
00:55:25,940 --> 00:55:21,479
I'm convinced beyond any reasonable

1182
00:55:28,430 --> 00:55:25,950
doubt Martin if it if I were an attorney

1183
00:55:33,380 --> 00:55:28,440
I think I could bring this case to court

1184
00:55:35,329 --> 00:55:33,390
and show cause with court level evidence

1185
00:55:38,749 --> 00:55:35,339
of different types obviously all of it

1186
00:55:42,319 --> 00:55:38,759
circumstantial but beyond any reasonable

1187
00:55:46,910 --> 00:55:42,329
doubt for a reasonable thinking person

1188
00:55:50,390 --> 00:55:46,920
that his death was not at his own hand

1189
00:55:53,509 --> 00:55:50,400
not in any way shape or form he had to

1190
00:55:58,789 --> 00:55:53,519
die and why did he have to die well

1191
00:56:02,719 --> 00:55:58,799
because again and the anxiety the

1192
00:56:07,460 --> 00:56:02,729
concerns as I mentioned to you off the

1193
00:56:08,900 --> 00:56:07,470
air James Forrestal was one of the most

1194
00:56:11,349 --> 00:56:08,910
charismatic men I've ever read about

1195
00:56:16,430 --> 00:56:11,359
women literally threw themselves at him

1196
00:56:18,229 --> 00:56:16,440
in the 1920s at the truly during the

1197
00:56:22,910 --> 00:56:18,239
roaring 20s he numbered among his

1198
00:56:27,259 --> 00:56:22,920
friends Gary Cooper Dorothy Parker the

1199
00:56:31,579 --> 00:56:27,269
Marx Brothers Robert Benchley the

1200
00:56:33,319 --> 00:56:31,589
humorist Greta Garbo he was a member of

1201
00:56:35,120 --> 00:56:33,329
the Algonquin Round Table that means

1202
00:56:37,789 --> 00:56:35,130
anything to some of your listeners in

1203
00:56:42,529 --> 00:56:37,799
terms of intellectuals he was brilliant

1204
00:56:44,390 --> 00:56:42,539
he was well-read incredible dresser made

1205
00:56:47,930 --> 00:56:44,400
a tremendous amount of money relatively

1206
00:56:49,910 --> 00:56:47,940
speaking built a home a private house on

1207
00:56:53,029 --> 00:56:49,920
Manhattan Island that still stands there

1208
00:56:55,489 --> 00:56:53,039
when he left there on Sutton Place to go

1209
00:56:59,870 --> 00:56:55,499
to Washington he sold it to his neighbor

1210
00:57:01,789 --> 00:56:59,880
Irving Berlin but he had a character

1211
00:57:04,880 --> 00:57:01,799
flaw he had to as far as I'm concerned

1212
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:04,890
one was he seemed to lack the ability to

1213
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:10,170
truly open up and confide to another

1214
00:57:15,729 --> 00:57:12,930
person he was incapable of it on a

1215
00:57:21,729 --> 00:57:15,739
certain level the other equally

1216
00:57:24,859 --> 00:57:21,739
self-destructive was he pathologically

1217
00:57:28,059 --> 00:57:24,869
personalized all of his professional

1218
00:57:30,670 --> 00:57:28,069
successes and failures I'm sure as

1219
00:57:32,890 --> 00:57:30,680
secretary of Navy

1220
00:57:35,890 --> 00:57:32,900
being on location during the Battle of

1221
00:57:39,580 --> 00:57:35,900
Leyte Gulf and Iwo Jima - very rough

1222
00:57:43,210 --> 00:57:39,590
battles but we won them ultimately he

1223
00:57:44,470 --> 00:57:43,220
you know again ultimate team player but

1224
00:57:48,490 --> 00:57:44,480
he must have felt tremendous

1225
00:57:51,460 --> 00:57:48,500
satisfaction after he became the first

1226
00:57:52,450 --> 00:57:51,470
Secretary of Defense and inherited all

1227
00:57:55,060 --> 00:57:52,460
of this knowledge

1228
00:57:56,980 --> 00:57:55,070
remember he knew everything that

1229
00:58:01,030 --> 00:57:56,990
President Truman knew there was nobody

1230
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:01,040
better briefed in the world but he never

1231
00:58:06,970 --> 00:58:03,890
knew where to go with it he wanted to

1232
00:58:10,030 --> 00:58:06,980
produce a positive result something but

1233
00:58:12,150 --> 00:58:10,040
from all we know about mj-12 or whatever

1234
00:58:14,560 --> 00:58:12,160
anybody wants to call it it did exist

1235
00:58:16,450 --> 00:58:14,570
although a great deal of the alleged

1236
00:58:19,660 --> 00:58:16,460
documentation that followed the so

1237
00:58:22,390 --> 00:58:19,670
called Forrestal at the the Eisenhower

1238
00:58:26,320 --> 00:58:22,400
briefing document eight pages and the

1239
00:58:28,450 --> 00:58:26,330
attached one-page eyes-only letter from

1240
00:58:31,330 --> 00:58:28,460
the president to James Forrestal dated

1241
00:58:38,770 --> 00:58:31,340
September 24th as I recall to proceed

1242
00:58:41,290 --> 00:58:38,780
with his assignment he he crashed and

1243
00:58:42,340 --> 00:58:41,300
burned inside of himself he was able to

1244
00:58:46,060 --> 00:58:42,350
hold it together

1245
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:46,070
but on the day that power shifted from

1246
00:58:50,770 --> 00:58:48,890
him when the president gave him the

1247
00:58:53,800 --> 00:58:50,780
highest decoration civilian could

1248
00:58:55,810 --> 00:58:53,810
receive and there was a huge change of

1249
00:59:01,360 --> 00:58:55,820
command ceremony in the courtyard and

1250
00:59:06,330 --> 00:59:01,370
then later in the president's offices he

1251
00:59:10,510 --> 00:59:06,340
literally had a nervous breakdown of

1252
00:59:14,500 --> 00:59:10,520
such profound magnitude that everyone

1253
00:59:16,510 --> 00:59:14,510
there was aware of it it's it's actually

1254
00:59:19,810 --> 00:59:16,520
heartbreaking it's tragic you can read

1255
00:59:21,670 --> 00:59:19,820
about it in certainly what is one of the

1256
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:21,680
best well maybe the best book ever

1257
00:59:29,620 --> 00:59:24,730
written on his life it's called driven

1258
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:29,630
patriot it's by Townsend hoops and the

1259
00:59:33,370 --> 00:59:31,490
historian Douglas Brinkley oops

1260
00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:33,380
I knew a little bit before he passed he

1261
00:59:40,600 --> 00:59:37,970
was among other things an under

1262
00:59:42,840 --> 00:59:40,610
secretary of the Air Force but he is a

1263
00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:42,850
young man he worked directly under

1264
00:59:47,799 --> 00:59:44,690
Forrestal at the Penta

1265
00:59:50,259 --> 00:59:47,809
and it's a brilliant biography of course

1266
00:59:54,309 --> 00:59:50,269
it has nothing in it relative to the UFO

1267
00:59:58,079 --> 00:59:54,319
situation but he broke and to reiterate

1268
01:00:01,089 --> 00:59:58,089
from before our break this was not

1269
01:00:03,430 --> 01:00:01,099
contemporary America when everybody knew

1270
01:00:05,589 --> 01:00:03,440
somebody who had been in therapy or

1271
01:00:10,829 --> 01:00:05,599
struggling with substance abuse which he

1272
01:00:14,920 --> 01:00:10,839
didn't saw psychiatrist seeing a

1273
01:00:17,319 --> 01:00:14,930
psychotherapist you know a counselor

1274
01:00:21,759 --> 01:00:17,329
this man knew where all the bodies were

1275
01:00:22,329 --> 01:00:21,769
buried allegorically and it's used an

1276
01:00:26,019 --> 01:00:22,339
aphorism

1277
01:00:28,000 --> 01:00:26,029
I enjoy ascribing to mafia hitmen before

1278
01:00:30,579 --> 01:00:28,010
they give you to in the head with a

1279
01:00:31,599 --> 01:00:30,589
silenced 22 it's nothing personal it's

1280
01:00:34,720 --> 01:00:31,609
just business

1281
01:00:36,640 --> 01:00:34,730
I'm sure there's a chance that the men

1282
01:00:39,819 --> 01:00:36,650
who actually forced him out that window

1283
01:00:44,380 --> 01:00:39,829
at about a quarter of 2:00 in the

1284
01:00:47,380 --> 01:00:44,390
morning of Sunday May 22nd 1949 actually

1285
01:00:49,870 --> 01:00:47,390
knew him admired him and liked him

1286
01:00:51,039 --> 01:00:49,880
personally but he had to die and it had

1287
01:00:53,859 --> 01:00:51,049
to look like a suicide

1288
01:00:56,499 --> 01:00:53,869
the chance he's good at he was supposed

1289
01:00:58,720 --> 01:00:56,509
to be released from this institution

1290
01:01:01,509 --> 01:00:58,730
within hours and complete his

1291
01:01:04,900 --> 01:01:01,519
convalescence on the estate of a friend

1292
01:01:07,390 --> 01:01:04,910
is his brother Henry was coming to pick

1293
01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:07,400
him up shortly thereafter but there was

1294
01:01:12,160 --> 01:01:09,410
no way that could be allowed to happen

1295
01:01:14,410 --> 01:01:12,170
again the idea that if he had a relapse

1296
01:01:17,259 --> 01:01:14,420
who knows what he'd blurt out again

1297
01:01:20,410 --> 01:01:17,269
nothing personal just business I

1298
01:01:23,079 --> 01:01:20,420
encourage anybody who wants to I've

1299
01:01:26,259 --> 01:01:23,089
given any number of talks on him and

1300
01:01:29,499 --> 01:01:26,269
published I'm sure seven or eight

1301
01:01:32,829 --> 01:01:29,509
articles maybe 10 12 I'm not sure over

1302
01:01:34,690 --> 01:01:32,839
the last 25 30 years but you can find

1303
01:01:37,690 --> 01:01:34,700
them online if you go on youtube and you

1304
01:01:39,490 --> 01:01:37,700
type in James Forrestal Peter Robbins

1305
01:01:43,749 --> 01:01:39,500
you get a couple of lectures right there

1306
01:01:46,900 --> 01:01:43,759
and same for conference papers and

1307
01:01:49,240 --> 01:01:46,910
articles even on the ones that are

1308
01:01:52,539 --> 01:01:49,250
available which are less developed than

1309
01:01:57,069 --> 01:01:52,549
my more recent research I think anybody

1310
01:01:58,180 --> 01:01:57,079
any reasonable thinking person will take

1311
01:02:00,130 --> 01:01:58,190
my points

1312
01:02:04,210 --> 01:02:00,140
I'm proud of the research that I put

1313
01:02:07,839 --> 01:02:04,220
into this story and it's an important

1314
01:02:10,299 --> 01:02:07,849
story that needs to be told the truth

1315
01:02:12,339 --> 01:02:10,309
I'm sorry Peter yeah

1316
01:02:18,339 --> 01:02:12,349
what would you speculate that he knew

1317
01:02:20,380 --> 01:02:18,349
that was so you know threatening really

1318
01:02:22,960 --> 01:02:20,390
simple he knew that we were not alone in

1319
01:02:26,109 --> 01:02:22,970
the universe he knew that what had

1320
01:02:28,210 --> 01:02:26,119
crashed in New Mexico was not a mogul

1321
01:02:31,270 --> 01:02:28,220
whether bloom he knew that there were

1322
01:02:34,660 --> 01:02:31,280
other intelligences which he may have

1323
01:02:37,029 --> 01:02:34,670
directly seen that speculative on a

1324
01:02:40,329 --> 01:02:37,039
brief visit to New Mexico which was not

1325
01:02:45,789 --> 01:02:40,339
recorded as such he knew that these were

1326
01:02:49,270 --> 01:02:45,799
things like general Twinings noted in

1327
01:02:52,870 --> 01:02:49,280
September of that year that were real

1328
01:02:56,170 --> 01:02:52,880
and not fictitious he knew that they

1329
01:02:59,170 --> 01:02:56,180
represented advanced technology he knew

1330
01:03:01,960 --> 01:02:59,180
they could fly circles around us he knew

1331
01:03:04,089 --> 01:03:01,970
we had no chance of catching them he

1332
01:03:07,930 --> 01:03:04,099
knew that we didn't know what their

1333
01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:07,940
intentions were and so on and so on he

1334
01:03:14,769 --> 01:03:12,770
knew it all again when I say no look at

1335
01:03:19,049 --> 01:03:14,779
me I've been in this work if you want to

1336
01:03:21,670 --> 01:03:19,059
call it that since 1975 over 40 years

1337
01:03:25,599 --> 01:03:21,680
some people have a lot of respect for

1338
01:03:27,700 --> 01:03:25,609
what I do and despite how my career

1339
01:03:30,700 --> 01:03:27,710
crashed and burned over the past several

1340
01:03:33,670 --> 01:03:30,710
years because of the scandalous behavior

1341
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:33,680
of my former co-author on a book that a

1342
01:03:39,279 --> 01:03:35,890
lot of people associate me with most and

1343
01:03:43,750 --> 01:03:39,289
I have to live with that I was lied to

1344
01:03:46,809 --> 01:03:43,760
and I bought it be that as it may what I

1345
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:46,819
know now at this point in my life and

1346
01:03:54,099 --> 01:03:51,170
work without getting to Zinn on anybody

1347
01:03:57,579 --> 01:03:54,109
is how little I know I know we're not

1348
01:04:01,059 --> 01:03:57,589
alone I know the dynamics of a lot of

1349
01:04:02,859 --> 01:04:01,069
cases I'm familiar with ever so much

1350
01:04:07,990 --> 01:04:02,869
evidence I have a huge library on

1351
01:04:11,529 --> 01:04:08,000
archive right here and so on and so on

1352
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:11,539
but when people tell me all aliens are

1353
01:04:14,950 --> 01:04:12,050
good

1354
01:04:17,500 --> 01:04:14,960
or they come from these planets or this

1355
01:04:19,270 --> 01:04:17,510
is the reason that they're here maybe

1356
01:04:22,930 --> 01:04:19,280
they're right maybe they're wrong I

1357
01:04:25,650 --> 01:04:22,940
don't know what they feel they know and

1358
01:04:28,420 --> 01:04:25,660
I think for many people in the field

1359
01:04:31,360 --> 01:04:28,430
what they say they know is what they

1360
01:04:34,930 --> 01:04:31,370
believe what they hope what they fear

1361
01:04:38,700 --> 01:04:34,940
what they long for and in that sense

1362
01:04:41,410 --> 01:04:38,710
ufology drifts very close to being

1363
01:04:44,770 --> 01:04:41,420
having the same dynamics as a religion

1364
01:04:46,690 --> 01:04:44,780
or a cult I'm essentially on my own

1365
01:04:48,570 --> 01:04:46,700
always have been except where I've

1366
01:04:52,800 --> 01:04:48,580
chosen to associate myself with

1367
01:04:55,780 --> 01:04:52,810
colleagues other researchers witnesses

1368
01:04:58,810 --> 01:04:55,790
very proud of the fact that I brought

1369
01:05:01,540 --> 01:04:58,820
together our friend Travis Walton and a

1370
01:05:03,430 --> 01:05:01,550
brilliant researcher and filmmaker named

1371
01:05:06,340 --> 01:05:03,440
Jennifer Stein about eight years ago

1372
01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:06,350
right and was an associate producer on

1373
01:05:10,810 --> 01:05:08,570
one of the financed UFO documentaries

1374
01:05:14,350 --> 01:05:10,820
ever made Travis the true story of

1375
01:05:19,300 --> 01:05:14,360
Travis Walton never prouder of anything

1376
01:05:22,390 --> 01:05:19,310
than that for a good part of my 35 year

1377
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:22,400
friendship with Budd Hopkins I was his

1378
01:05:28,470 --> 01:05:25,250
assistant and was at his side through

1379
01:05:31,360 --> 01:05:28,480
the investigation of several hundred

1380
01:05:34,720 --> 01:05:31,370
individual abduction cases and in great

1381
01:05:36,430 --> 01:05:34,730
detail yes we have a picture up there

1382
01:05:40,110 --> 01:05:36,440
now for the people on YouTube with you

1383
01:05:42,190 --> 01:05:40,120
with but with your artwork it looks like

1384
01:05:46,680 --> 01:05:42,200
that's buds aren't work when his

1385
01:05:51,850 --> 01:05:46,690
students that he really had quite a

1386
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:51,860
varied work I see see his work all the

1387
01:05:56,440 --> 01:05:53,450
time and I check out his work is I

1388
01:05:58,150 --> 01:05:56,450
really like his abstract he's a Brit he

1389
01:06:01,840 --> 01:05:58,160
was a brilliant painter entered the

1390
01:06:04,150 --> 01:06:01,850
field in the late 50s as an abstract

1391
01:06:07,300 --> 01:06:04,160
expressionist his work change with the

1392
01:06:10,630 --> 01:06:07,310
times and thankfully he never stopped I

1393
01:06:12,610 --> 01:06:10,640
did stop as a painter although that is

1394
01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:12,620
going to be changing this year after a

1395
01:06:18,880 --> 01:06:16,130
very long break just to let the listener

1396
01:06:21,730 --> 01:06:18,890
know out there you and I talk in great

1397
01:06:24,859 --> 01:06:21,740
detail about the situation with Larry

1398
01:06:27,529 --> 01:06:24,869
Warren how that all crashed and happened

1399
01:06:28,970 --> 01:06:27,539
and and it was a wonderful interview if

1400
01:06:33,440 --> 01:06:28,980
anyone would like to check that out that

1401
01:06:36,980 --> 01:06:33,450
was interview number 3 0 3 episode 3 0 3

1402
01:06:38,839 --> 01:06:36,990
and there was last May of 2018 so if

1403
01:06:40,849 --> 01:06:38,849
anyone we don't need to repeat that

1404
01:06:44,539 --> 01:06:40,859
again but if I knew anyone was

1405
01:06:46,309 --> 01:06:44,549
interested in hearing Peter talk about

1406
01:06:48,950 --> 01:06:46,319
that whole situation check out that

1407
01:06:51,650 --> 01:06:48,960
episode so Peter just let you know I

1408
01:06:54,410 --> 01:06:51,660
have the phone number up on the screen

1409
01:06:57,079 --> 01:06:54,420
if anyone wants to call in and they had

1410
01:06:59,480 --> 01:06:57,089
a question about the Forrestal incident

1411
01:07:01,999 --> 01:06:59,490
because we're ready now or anything

1412
01:07:04,940 --> 01:07:02,009
by all means yeah and but we were out

1413
01:07:07,910 --> 01:07:04,950
we're gonna be heading as I've been

1414
01:07:11,329 --> 01:07:07,920
promising to talk about bud you and you

1415
01:07:14,089 --> 01:07:11,339
and bud and buds work and there's one it

1416
01:07:16,640 --> 01:07:14,099
there's one case I always love when buds

1417
01:07:19,249 --> 01:07:16,650
name comes up and that's the the one we

1418
01:07:22,039 --> 01:07:19,259
have talked about before with a diplomat

1419
01:07:25,279 --> 01:07:22,049
I think was the diplomat that's right

1420
01:07:29,479 --> 01:07:25,289
the the bridge and and all that but

1421
01:07:34,880 --> 01:07:29,489
anyway before we get into any of that

1422
01:07:37,190 --> 01:07:34,890
I'd like for you to tell tell us exactly

1423
01:07:45,039 --> 01:07:37,200
how did you get in touch with but in the

1424
01:07:50,390 --> 01:07:45,049
very beginning in February of 1975 for a

1425
01:07:53,440 --> 01:07:50,400
number of reasons I can go into a memory

1426
01:07:56,749 --> 01:07:53,450
that I had repressed from childhood

1427
01:08:02,150 --> 01:07:56,759
returned to me in the course of a few

1428
01:08:05,359 --> 01:08:02,160
minutes on an afternoon I think the main

1429
01:08:08,089 --> 01:08:05,369
reason that it clicked in although I I

1430
01:08:10,999 --> 01:08:08,099
think I know the mechanisms is that I

1431
01:08:14,180 --> 01:08:11,009
was finally ready to deal with it 14

1432
01:08:17,300 --> 01:08:14,190
years earlier a little more my sister

1433
01:08:19,910 --> 01:08:17,310
and I then growing up on New York

1434
01:08:23,809 --> 01:08:19,920
State's Long Island in a lovely little

1435
01:08:26,419 --> 01:08:23,819
village had an opportunity just playing

1436
01:08:30,169 --> 01:08:26,429
outside as kids do on a very quiet late

1437
01:08:32,329 --> 01:08:30,179
morning in June in the early 60s to

1438
01:08:35,419 --> 01:08:32,339
observe coming in a very high rate of

1439
01:08:38,810 --> 01:08:35,429
speed five silvery white disc shaped

1440
01:08:40,910 --> 01:08:38,820
objects that were in a very

1441
01:08:44,840 --> 01:08:40,920
sighs v-type formation they stopped on a

1442
01:08:48,170 --> 01:08:44,850
dime and for a prolonged period of time

1443
01:08:50,330 --> 01:08:48,180
we observed them they were metallic not

1444
01:08:52,310 --> 01:08:50,340
a cloud in the sky close enough to make

1445
01:08:58,430 --> 01:08:52,320
out regular detailing around the edge of

1446
01:09:01,010 --> 01:08:58,440
each I was an adolescent kid about as

1447
01:09:02,600 --> 01:09:01,020
sophisticated as Leave It to Beaver it

1448
01:09:06,800 --> 01:09:02,610
was a very different time to grow up in

1449
01:09:10,010 --> 01:09:06,810
America quite innocent I was a mega nerd

1450
01:09:12,530 --> 01:09:10,020
I was a boy scout

1451
01:09:15,380 --> 01:09:12,540
I collected stamps and bugs and rocks

1452
01:09:17,300 --> 01:09:15,390
and read and was the shortest kid in my

1453
01:09:21,020 --> 01:09:17,310
class and wore glasses I was the

1454
01:09:23,540 --> 01:09:21,030
definition of a geek and the one thing I

1455
01:09:25,310 --> 01:09:23,550
knew about this phenomena because it

1456
01:09:28,250 --> 01:09:25,320
really hadn't interested me I know other

1457
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:28,260
things is that people made fun of this

1458
01:09:35,840 --> 01:09:32,970
subject my only contact with it was some

1459
01:09:38,930 --> 01:09:35,850
wonderful B movies that I saw growing up

1460
01:09:40,220 --> 01:09:38,940
as a kid but my understanding from the

1461
01:09:43,310 --> 01:09:40,230
adult world was that it was nonsense

1462
01:09:45,470 --> 01:09:43,320
with that his backstory it was too much

1463
01:09:47,450 --> 01:09:45,480
for me to deal with at the time my

1464
01:09:49,730 --> 01:09:47,460
sister never forgot it and it was the

1465
01:09:52,070 --> 01:09:49,740
beginning of an abduction experience for

1466
01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:52,080
her for me it was something that I

1467
01:09:57,860 --> 01:09:54,690
managed within weeks I can tell you how

1468
01:10:00,940 --> 01:09:57,870
I think I did it I was very fortunate

1469
01:10:03,410 --> 01:10:00,950
growing up happy family a lot of breaks

1470
01:10:05,600 --> 01:10:03,420
you know my problems were as they say

1471
01:10:08,240 --> 01:10:05,610
now first world problems we didn't have

1472
01:10:10,790 --> 01:10:08,250
much money but loving family and happy

1473
01:10:13,700 --> 01:10:10,800
childhood the best of being in a small

1474
01:10:17,290 --> 01:10:13,710
town and close to New York City and low

1475
01:10:21,190 --> 01:10:17,300
life went on and years later I'm a

1476
01:10:25,160 --> 01:10:21,200
aspiring painter the loft in Chinatown

1477
01:10:26,660 --> 01:10:25,170
selling some work working teaching at my

1478
01:10:31,100 --> 01:10:26,670
alma mater the School of Visual Arts

1479
01:10:33,140 --> 01:10:31,110
living my dream nice girlfriend and this

1480
01:10:36,380 --> 01:10:33,150
memory comes crashing back into my life

1481
01:10:38,750 --> 01:10:36,390
and I can't tell you how upsetting it

1482
01:10:40,940 --> 01:10:38,760
was Martin I thought I was going crazy

1483
01:10:43,430 --> 01:10:40,950
anybody that suffered from more

1484
01:10:46,190 --> 01:10:43,440
conventional trauma and more

1485
01:10:47,990 --> 01:10:46,200
debilitating trauma you know sexual

1486
01:10:51,050 --> 01:10:48,000
abuse or what-have-you

1487
01:10:52,520 --> 01:10:51,060
could be speak speak about this more

1488
01:10:54,799 --> 01:10:52,530
eloquently than I

1489
01:10:57,589 --> 01:10:54,809
all I knew was how could how could

1490
01:11:00,379 --> 01:10:57,599
anybody forget something like this well

1491
01:11:04,250 --> 01:11:00,389
I finally calmed down I knew I had a

1492
01:11:06,500 --> 01:11:04,260
witness and my sister at the time an

1493
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:06,510
aspiring poet about a year before her

1494
01:11:12,770 --> 01:11:10,650
singing career started to skyrocket poor

1495
01:11:15,169 --> 01:11:12,780
as a Churchmouse living in a five-floor

1496
01:11:17,600 --> 01:11:15,179
walk-up in the East Village

1497
01:11:20,839 --> 01:11:17,610
Maya was so north of me I called her and

1498
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:20,849
I was very careful not splurt out I've

1499
01:11:25,990 --> 01:11:23,250
remembered such-and-such I said a

1500
01:11:30,350 --> 01:11:26,000
childhood memory has returned to me and

1501
01:11:32,540 --> 01:11:30,360
you were there to know what you know are

1502
01:11:36,410 --> 01:11:32,550
you what you remember is this a good

1503
01:11:38,180 --> 01:11:36,420
time to talk let me set the scene and

1504
01:11:40,129 --> 01:11:38,190
what I started to do Martin was just

1505
01:11:43,060 --> 01:11:40,139
talk about the weather where we were

1506
01:11:45,379 --> 01:11:43,070
standing in proximity to each other etc

1507
01:11:49,490 --> 01:11:45,389
and she said stop I know what you're

1508
01:11:51,439 --> 01:11:49,500
talking about well we got our points

1509
01:11:54,020 --> 01:11:51,449
straight she remembered what I

1510
01:11:56,600 --> 01:11:54,030
remembered with one tiny detail that we

1511
01:11:58,370 --> 01:11:56,610
settled the next day but I I was

1512
01:12:04,549 --> 01:11:58,380
overcome and then she said but there's

1513
01:12:05,930 --> 01:12:04,559
more and then I'm sorry we have a we

1514
01:12:11,149 --> 01:12:05,940
have a caller on the line the caller

1515
01:12:12,770 --> 01:12:11,159
must be in the wind so I don't have a

1516
01:12:14,689 --> 01:12:12,780
way to actually mute that I'm gonna have

1517
01:12:15,500 --> 01:12:14,699
a new call call system coming up really

1518
01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:15,510
soon okay

1519
01:12:22,160 --> 01:12:18,570
worthy yeah anyway on to much about this

1520
01:12:23,810 --> 01:12:22,170
but very quickly I became obsessed with

1521
01:12:26,859 --> 01:12:23,820
Poe I became obsessed with the subject

1522
01:12:30,529 --> 01:12:26,869
immediately and my art career suffered

1523
01:12:32,450 --> 01:12:30,539
within a year I continued to teach I

1524
01:12:37,279 --> 01:12:32,460
continued to paint I continued to sell

1525
01:12:40,010 --> 01:12:37,289
my work but I I was faking it I I wasn't

1526
01:12:45,740 --> 01:12:40,020
an aspiring artist in Keokuk Iowa I was

1527
01:12:48,109 --> 01:12:45,750
in New York City I knew you know Roy

1528
01:12:51,260 --> 01:12:48,119
Lichtenstein I had met Andy Warhol I was

1529
01:12:53,600 --> 01:12:51,270
I had a shot at it and I was pretty good

1530
01:12:58,220 --> 01:12:53,610
I worked at several galleries including

1531
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:58,230
Castelli hanging pictures I saw my life

1532
01:13:01,729 --> 01:13:00,000
in my career straight ahead this was all

1533
01:13:03,950 --> 01:13:01,739
I had wanted to be since I was a kid an

1534
01:13:06,260 --> 01:13:03,960
artist and this was the place to do it

1535
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:06,270
and I was still doing it

1536
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:07,770
but I knew there was something more

1537
01:13:12,950 --> 01:13:10,170
important and I resented it more than I

1538
01:13:15,740 --> 01:13:12,960
can say and part of me still does part

1539
01:13:17,690 --> 01:13:15,750
of me still does anyway within ten

1540
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:17,700
months or so I was building my library I

1541
01:13:21,710 --> 01:13:19,890
didn't really want to meet people that

1542
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:21,720
said that you know they were UFO

1543
01:13:28,130 --> 01:13:25,010
researchers they had to be nuts I

1544
01:13:31,700 --> 01:13:28,140
managed to make one or two three friends

1545
01:13:34,070 --> 01:13:31,710
two of my mentors besides bud came into

1546
01:13:37,100 --> 01:13:34,080
my life that first year and one

1547
01:13:39,260 --> 01:13:37,110
afternoon walking in the city and at the

1548
01:13:41,840 --> 01:13:39,270
time a weekly newspaper doesn't exist

1549
01:13:44,810 --> 01:13:41,850
anymore but it did for many years The

1550
01:13:47,890 --> 01:13:44,820
Village Voice not a UFO paper very

1551
01:13:50,720 --> 01:13:47,900
political paper very progressive I

1552
01:13:52,790 --> 01:13:50,730
walked by a newsstand and the feature

1553
01:13:55,310 --> 01:13:52,800
article on the front page is about a UFO

1554
01:13:59,300 --> 01:13:55,320
incident I did a double-take I bought it

1555
01:14:01,490 --> 01:13:59,310
went home it was the best written UFO

1556
01:14:04,850 --> 01:14:01,500
article case history I had read to date

1557
01:14:06,800 --> 01:14:04,860
and the name of the writer was Budd

1558
01:14:09,260 --> 01:14:06,810
Hopkins the New York art world is fairly

1559
01:14:11,180 --> 01:14:09,270
small to those of us that are living in

1560
01:14:12,980 --> 01:14:11,190
it and I knew there was a late period

1561
01:14:14,780 --> 01:14:12,990
abstract expressionist by that name I

1562
01:14:17,810 --> 01:14:14,790
had seen his work once or twice in group

1563
01:14:19,550 --> 01:14:17,820
shows Budd spelled his name with two DS

1564
01:14:25,880 --> 01:14:19,560
there's only one in the New York

1565
01:14:28,730 --> 01:14:25,890
phonebook I cold called him yeah hi mr.

1566
01:14:30,650 --> 01:14:28,740
Hopkins my name is I am a painter and

1567
01:14:32,780 --> 01:14:30,660
teach at the School of Visual Arts I had

1568
01:14:34,910 --> 01:14:32,790
a UFO sighting when I was a kid my

1569
01:14:37,880 --> 01:14:34,920
sister seems to have had an experience

1570
01:14:41,270 --> 01:14:37,890
and I just read your article and wanted

1571
01:14:47,210 --> 01:14:41,280
to make contact first question tell me

1572
01:14:49,720 --> 01:14:47,220
about your art well we all very driven

1573
01:14:53,480 --> 01:14:49,730
by our taste I came out of the

1574
01:14:56,450 --> 01:14:53,490
minimalist conceptualist school that was

1575
01:14:59,060 --> 01:14:56,460
you know me in the sixties in art school

1576
01:15:01,100 --> 01:14:59,070
and bud was rooted in Abstract

1577
01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:01,110
Expressionism coming out of 30s and 40s

1578
01:15:09,080 --> 01:15:06,810
and he was not a fan but he was very

1579
01:15:11,330 --> 01:15:09,090
interested in my sister's experience and

1580
01:15:14,090 --> 01:15:11,340
I guess interested enough to meet me and

1581
01:15:17,750 --> 01:15:14,100
invited me over coffee a few days later

1582
01:15:20,009 --> 01:15:17,760
and we sat at his kitchen table talking

1583
01:15:22,319 --> 01:15:20,019
about art life and UFOs

1584
01:15:25,830 --> 01:15:22,329
became the title of his last book his

1585
01:15:27,390 --> 01:15:25,840
memoir and I I could never have imagined

1586
01:15:30,330 --> 01:15:27,400
thinking now that that would be the

1587
01:15:32,989 --> 01:15:30,340
first of hundreds of cups of coffee over

1588
01:15:37,319 --> 01:15:32,999
the next 35 years at that kitchen table

1589
01:15:41,399 --> 01:15:37,329
and this was for five years five years

1590
01:15:44,339 --> 01:15:41,409
before he rode his first UFO book he had

1591
01:15:45,959 --> 01:15:44,349
an interest in the subject but missing

1592
01:15:48,750 --> 01:15:45,969
time which not only gave us a

1593
01:15:51,169 --> 01:15:48,760
brilliantly important UFO book but gave

1594
01:15:53,850 --> 01:15:51,179
a new phrase to the English language

1595
01:15:57,259 --> 01:15:53,860
that you used earlier in the show and

1596
01:16:01,859 --> 01:15:57,269
people knew what you were talking about

1597
01:16:05,339 --> 01:16:01,869
after he published that book he became a

1598
01:16:07,169 --> 01:16:05,349
very major presence in ufology and the

1599
01:16:11,850 --> 01:16:07,179
art world kind of backed away a little

1600
01:16:12,959 --> 01:16:11,860
bit you're into UFOs do you know we

1601
01:16:16,109 --> 01:16:12,969
thought you were just an intellectual

1602
01:16:18,959 --> 01:16:16,119
amazing painter sculptor and that

1603
01:16:22,379 --> 01:16:18,969
bedeviled him to a degree but he started

1604
01:16:25,020 --> 01:16:22,389
to need assistance and then in 87 after

1605
01:16:26,879 --> 01:16:25,030
the publication of intruders his world

1606
01:16:30,299 --> 01:16:26,889
went kind of crazy and he needed

1607
01:16:33,629 --> 01:16:30,309
somebody there I adored him as a friend

1608
01:16:36,689 --> 01:16:33,639
as a mentor he's one of the most

1609
01:16:39,020 --> 01:16:36,699
interesting kind good guys I ever met

1610
01:16:42,989 --> 01:16:39,030
he's like an older brother to me I

1611
01:16:46,379 --> 01:16:42,999
warned him when he died but I stayed by

1612
01:16:49,620 --> 01:16:46,389
his side as an assistant until my sister

1613
01:16:52,620 --> 01:16:49,630
died and I crashed and burned in 2000

1614
01:16:55,560 --> 01:16:52,630
and then when I was finally ready to

1615
01:16:58,649 --> 01:16:55,570
come back to work he had trained very

1616
01:17:00,839 --> 01:16:58,659
appropriately a terrific member of our

1617
01:17:04,140 --> 01:17:00,849
Board of the intruders foundation to do

1618
01:17:06,750 --> 01:17:04,150
what I had been doing for years and so

1619
01:17:10,290 --> 01:17:06,760
my relationship the last years of his

1620
01:17:12,209 --> 01:17:10,300
life especially when he was sick ended

1621
01:17:14,939 --> 01:17:12,219
like it began I'd come over once or

1622
01:17:17,040 --> 01:17:14,949
twice a month we'd talk I'd help out

1623
01:17:19,319 --> 01:17:17,050
around the house in the studio do stuff

1624
01:17:25,319 --> 01:17:19,329
that needed to be done more and more as

1625
01:17:28,799 --> 01:17:25,329
he grew weaker and that is the long

1626
01:17:33,790 --> 01:17:31,529
yeah and for not just you you know but

1627
01:17:37,120 --> 01:17:33,800
for the people that knew

1628
01:17:39,550 --> 01:17:37,130
I always hurt you know some wonderful

1629
01:17:43,090 --> 01:17:39,560
things about him you know that he was he

1630
01:17:45,930 --> 01:17:43,100
was a character and really kind person

1631
01:17:49,689 --> 01:17:45,940
how was also a great intellectual

1632
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:49,699
extremely well-read a brilliant writer

1633
01:17:55,870 --> 01:17:51,650
the best first draft writer I've ever

1634
01:17:58,419 --> 01:17:55,880
met in my life really but he he was as

1635
01:18:01,419 --> 01:17:58,429
knowledgeable on the art world as he was

1636
01:18:04,570 --> 01:18:01,429
on UFOs if not more so he never lost his

1637
01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:04,580
passion for the Arts and something that

1638
01:18:08,500 --> 01:18:06,170
I follow him in is if I'm going to be

1639
01:18:10,899 --> 01:18:08,510
speaking in a town or city I've never

1640
01:18:14,020 --> 01:18:10,909
been to I will always find out if

1641
01:18:15,550 --> 01:18:14,030
there's a museum there and make it part

1642
01:18:19,390 --> 01:18:15,560
of the deal that I get to spend some

1643
01:18:22,959 --> 01:18:19,400
time there thank God for the arts and

1644
01:18:26,740 --> 01:18:22,969
for that part of my life

1645
01:18:29,890 --> 01:18:26,750
I I owe him a tremendous debt that I

1646
01:18:31,780 --> 01:18:29,900
feel that my continuing to try to carry

1647
01:18:34,959 --> 01:18:31,790
on and be there for people that have had

1648
01:18:36,850 --> 01:18:34,969
experiences and not being a very

1649
01:18:39,490 --> 01:18:36,860
practical person kind of sixties

1650
01:18:42,250 --> 01:18:39,500
idealist I've never charged he never

1651
01:18:44,500 --> 01:18:42,260
charged anybody a sin for the work he

1652
01:18:47,080 --> 01:18:44,510
did and it was not a good thing in a

1653
01:18:48,880 --> 01:18:47,090
sense he lived very close to the poverty

1654
01:18:52,419 --> 01:18:48,890
level for a fair amount of his life and

1655
01:18:54,700 --> 01:18:52,429
it angered me at times but he felt it

1656
01:18:56,649 --> 01:18:54,710
was the right thing to do he also felt

1657
01:18:59,080 --> 01:18:56,659
quite specifically that somebody like a

1658
01:19:01,810 --> 01:18:59,090
fill class the moment that they heard he

1659
01:19:04,260 --> 01:19:01,820
had to take a dime from somebody yes you

1660
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:04,270
spend hours of his time assisting them

1661
01:19:09,070 --> 01:19:06,770
that you know he'd be nailed as some

1662
01:19:11,979 --> 01:19:09,080
kind of creep and Charlotte you know

1663
01:19:16,840 --> 01:19:11,989
just you know yeah exactly yeah yeah

1664
01:19:19,090 --> 01:19:16,850
now I understand I remember hearing not

1665
01:19:22,120 --> 01:19:19,100
reading anything and specifically but

1666
01:19:24,340 --> 01:19:22,130
that his ex-wife tried to destroy his

1667
01:19:30,959 --> 01:19:24,350
legacy is that is that true or is there

1668
01:19:34,300 --> 01:19:30,969
anything true yes there is and yes is

1669
01:19:36,580 --> 01:19:34,310
there something that has changed you

1670
01:19:41,229 --> 01:19:36,590
does she do you know if she's still out

1671
01:19:45,370 --> 01:19:41,239
there trying to stir from a Jinnah is

1672
01:19:46,390 --> 01:19:45,380
yeah I knew her fairly well I heard it's

1673
01:19:50,230 --> 01:19:46,400
a tough tough

1674
01:19:53,890 --> 01:19:50,240
subject to because he's a real living

1675
01:19:56,560 --> 01:19:53,900
person who you know could sue me for

1676
01:20:00,430 --> 01:19:56,570
slander if I said something about her

1677
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:00,440
and so I'm not but the answer to

1678
01:20:06,570 --> 01:20:02,090
question is yes and I expect the

1679
01:20:10,270 --> 01:20:06,580
continues that's too bad that's too bad

1680
01:20:12,370 --> 01:20:10,280
so I just think the just the fact alone

1681
01:20:14,620 --> 01:20:12,380
what you just said about him not

1682
01:20:16,000 --> 01:20:14,630
charging any money I think I think a lot

1683
01:20:19,330 --> 01:20:16,010
of people be surprised to hear that

1684
01:20:22,030 --> 01:20:19,340
because you you think that you know

1685
01:20:24,010 --> 01:20:22,040
people like I mean you hear all the time

1686
01:20:25,690 --> 01:20:24,020
oh they're doing this for money and it's

1687
01:20:28,480 --> 01:20:25,700
laughable you know it's laughable don't

1688
01:20:30,460 --> 01:20:28,490
you're Peter I mean if you had to make a

1689
01:20:34,540 --> 01:20:30,470
living

1690
01:20:37,600 --> 01:20:34,550
in the UFO field you'd starve you'd be

1691
01:20:41,890 --> 01:20:37,610
like a starving artist yeah I've made

1692
01:20:45,070 --> 01:20:41,900
some of my living on and off over the

1693
01:20:49,390 --> 01:20:45,080
decades and I'm proud of that more

1694
01:20:51,580 --> 01:20:49,400
recently I observe that they're people

1695
01:20:55,750 --> 01:20:51,590
that are involved in the youth logical

1696
01:20:58,180 --> 01:20:55,760
community that that seems very cavalier

1697
01:20:59,290 --> 01:20:58,190
and wrong and how dare you you know

1698
01:21:01,240 --> 01:20:59,300
you're either supposed to be of

1699
01:21:04,510 --> 01:21:01,250
independent means or just keep your day

1700
01:21:07,000 --> 01:21:04,520
job as I said I'm not a practical person

1701
01:21:08,130 --> 01:21:07,010
and I felt that this work was important

1702
01:21:10,960 --> 01:21:08,140
enough that I needed

1703
01:21:13,000 --> 01:21:10,970
then I should dedicate myself to it and

1704
01:21:14,650 --> 01:21:13,010
I hope some of the contributions I've

1705
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:14,660
made have made a difference in people's

1706
01:21:23,950 --> 01:21:19,850
lives and will in the future but yes

1707
01:21:26,380 --> 01:21:23,960
generally speaking it is a joke and and

1708
01:21:31,900 --> 01:21:26,390
it would be funny if it weren't so

1709
01:21:34,180 --> 01:21:31,910
insulting and I I still do a lot of

1710
01:21:38,560 --> 01:21:34,190
things for free but I'm also somebody

1711
01:21:42,130 --> 01:21:38,570
who feels that on your terms that you

1712
01:21:44,710 --> 01:21:42,140
should be paid for your work again that

1713
01:21:46,450 --> 01:21:44,720
doesn't mean that you know this is a

1714
01:21:49,300 --> 01:21:46,460
good example I'm spending two hours of

1715
01:21:53,320 --> 01:21:49,310
my time with an old friend who happens

1716
01:21:55,630 --> 01:21:53,330
to be a wonderful radio host you get

1717
01:21:57,340 --> 01:21:55,640
content normally you'd say oh well you

1718
01:22:00,239 --> 01:21:57,350
get a chance to promote yourself and

1719
01:22:02,620 --> 01:22:00,249
sell your books well right now that's a

1720
01:22:06,239 --> 01:22:02,630
existential joke for me because as a

1721
01:22:09,189 --> 01:22:06,249
published author with one major

1722
01:22:12,040 --> 01:22:09,199
bestseller a top 10 best seller in

1723
01:22:15,969 --> 01:22:12,050
another country under my belt I have no

1724
01:22:19,270 --> 01:22:15,979
books in print left at escape once I

1725
01:22:20,979 --> 01:22:19,280
understood and had seen the overwhelming

1726
01:22:24,399 --> 01:22:20,989
amount of evidence and research and

1727
01:22:27,399 --> 01:22:24,409
investigation part of it pointing out to

1728
01:22:30,969 --> 01:22:27,409
me that 30 years ago when I was you know

1729
01:22:35,080 --> 01:22:30,979
young idealistic investigator being one

1730
01:22:37,209 --> 01:22:35,090
used by a sociopath that I miss stuff

1731
01:22:41,529 --> 01:22:37,219
and I didn't dig deep enough in places

1732
01:22:43,089 --> 01:22:41,539
and once I realized that I brought it

1733
01:22:47,040 --> 01:22:43,099
immediately to the attention of our

1734
01:22:49,270 --> 01:22:47,050
publisher and with very mixed feelings

1735
01:22:52,299 --> 01:22:49,280
told them that they had to do their

1736
01:22:54,850 --> 01:22:52,309
investigation and that if they had come

1737
01:22:56,799 --> 01:22:54,860
to the same conclusions that I did they

1738
01:23:00,100 --> 01:22:56,809
needed to cease publication of that work

1739
01:23:02,229 --> 01:23:00,110
I wrote to follow-up books one available

1740
01:23:05,819 --> 01:23:02,239
free online four hundred and fifty pages

1741
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:05,829
the other a more modest book that I

1742
01:23:13,870 --> 01:23:10,610
printed privately and not that they were

1743
01:23:16,719 --> 01:23:13,880
all wrong but the text was poisoned

1744
01:23:20,620 --> 01:23:16,729
enough by material that wasn't true that

1745
01:23:23,729 --> 01:23:20,630
I withdrew both of those books so the

1746
01:23:26,560 --> 01:23:23,739
best I can get out of this is you know

1747
01:23:28,540 --> 01:23:26,570
at some point later this year when I

1748
01:23:30,250 --> 01:23:28,550
publish a book that's not going to be

1749
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:30,260
earth-shaking but I think it'll be good

1750
01:23:34,810 --> 01:23:32,449
it's going to be an anthology of my

1751
01:23:37,629 --> 01:23:34,820
writings observations over the past

1752
01:23:42,129 --> 01:23:37,639
couple of decades some personal material

1753
01:23:44,709 --> 01:23:42,139
on my involvement in the work it's not

1754
01:23:48,189 --> 01:23:44,719
going to you know pay many bills but

1755
01:23:49,949 --> 01:23:48,199
I'll take pride in it and I can say I've

1756
01:23:52,739 --> 01:23:49,959
got a couple of small talks coming up

1757
01:23:56,410 --> 01:23:52,749
they're not small talks but small venues

1758
01:23:58,870 --> 01:23:56,420
however in March I had my first major

1759
01:24:03,040 --> 01:23:58,880
talk of the season which is at an

1760
01:24:06,040 --> 01:24:03,050
old-new conference it's new in that it

1761
01:24:10,109 --> 01:24:06,050
has not been held before under this name

1762
01:24:12,549 --> 01:24:10,119
and it has put together organized by the

1763
01:24:13,270 --> 01:24:12,559
originator of the International UFO

1764
01:24:15,790 --> 01:24:13,280
Congress

1765
01:24:20,680 --> 01:24:15,800
which our dear friend Alejandro and and

1766
01:24:22,810 --> 01:24:20,690
and Karen now run out of Phoenix but it

1767
01:24:26,920 --> 01:24:22,820
used to be as you know for many years in

1768
01:24:29,800 --> 01:24:26,930
a wild little western town on the edge

1769
01:24:31,710 --> 01:24:29,810
of Nevada and Colorado and where Arizona

1770
01:24:35,380 --> 01:24:31,720
I'd forget three states come together

1771
01:24:37,780 --> 01:24:35,390
Laughlin and they are starting a new

1772
01:24:40,720 --> 01:24:37,790
conference it will be in March pretty

1773
01:24:46,230 --> 01:24:40,730
much the last full week in March called

1774
01:24:48,840 --> 01:24:46,240
the UFO mega con and it's almost all

1775
01:24:51,790 --> 01:24:48,850
lesser-known um

1776
01:24:54,670 --> 01:24:51,800
presenters I think I was the very last

1777
01:24:57,610 --> 01:24:54,680
one they invited I'm honored to do it

1778
01:25:01,210 --> 01:24:57,620
and that kind of brings us to the Budd

1779
01:25:02,830 --> 01:25:01,220
Hopkins part of our show here the

1780
01:25:04,240 --> 01:25:02,840
organizers did something very

1781
01:25:06,610 --> 01:25:04,250
interesting and they said we'd love to

1782
01:25:08,770 --> 01:25:06,620
have you but we want you to speak on

1783
01:25:11,830 --> 01:25:08,780
something you've never spoken on before

1784
01:25:15,610 --> 01:25:11,840
you know like a lot of my colleagues

1785
01:25:19,840 --> 01:25:15,620
well I don't know many of them are kind

1786
01:25:22,930 --> 01:25:19,850
of super specialists but I have you know

1787
01:25:25,330 --> 01:25:22,940
15 talks ready to go at any given point

1788
01:25:28,380 --> 01:25:25,340
that are in levels of development some

1789
01:25:32,710 --> 01:25:28,390
new some old with new and material

1790
01:25:36,100 --> 01:25:32,720
powerpoints always under revision and I

1791
01:25:38,230 --> 01:25:36,110
thought what can I do not just to do a

1792
01:25:40,780 --> 01:25:38,240
new talk but something that would be of

1793
01:25:44,050 --> 01:25:40,790
value and importance I'd like to think I

1794
01:25:46,630 --> 01:25:44,060
thought back to my years with bud and I

1795
01:25:50,410 --> 01:25:46,640
remembered one of the most if not the

1796
01:25:53,710 --> 01:25:50,420
most sensitive area that he occasionally

1797
01:25:59,370 --> 01:25:53,720
was called on to pursue was at the

1798
01:26:02,260 --> 01:25:59,380
request of individuals who were usually

1799
01:26:04,990 --> 01:26:02,270
experiences or abductees concern over

1800
01:26:08,080 --> 01:26:05,000
their children because the way it works

1801
01:26:11,800 --> 01:26:08,090
is with rare exceptions this follows

1802
01:26:14,260 --> 01:26:11,810
bloodlines they are interested in that

1803
01:26:16,210 --> 01:26:14,270
you know how that sounds to the folks

1804
01:26:19,450 --> 01:26:16,220
who are not familiar with the depths of

1805
01:26:25,480 --> 01:26:19,460
studies in this subject but children get

1806
01:26:27,100 --> 01:26:25,490
taken and the potential for a

1807
01:26:30,520 --> 01:26:27,110
well-meaning outside it

1808
01:26:33,430 --> 01:26:30,530
what are you telling me we've got this

1809
01:26:35,950 --> 01:26:33,440
person here who in Bud's case he's a

1810
01:26:37,629 --> 01:26:35,960
professional painter I don't care how

1811
01:26:40,000 --> 01:26:37,639
many UFO books he has or how much people

1812
01:26:41,560 --> 01:26:40,010
respect him he's responding to somebody

1813
01:26:44,350 --> 01:26:41,570
who made themselves be mentally ill

1814
01:26:47,319 --> 01:26:44,360
saying my kid was taken by aliens or I'm

1815
01:26:49,450 --> 01:26:47,329
concerned they might be or receiving a

1816
01:26:53,399 --> 01:26:49,460
letter directly from an adolescent or

1817
01:26:56,830 --> 01:26:53,409
young person saying dear mr. Hopkins and

1818
01:26:59,830 --> 01:26:56,840
we did pursue work in this area we had

1819
01:27:02,410 --> 01:26:59,840
to and every once in a while I would say

1820
01:27:04,149 --> 01:27:02,420
bud there will come a time in our

1821
01:27:07,839 --> 01:27:04,159
futures where we won't be working

1822
01:27:11,229 --> 01:27:07,849
together where I will be on my own may I

1823
01:27:14,589 --> 01:27:11,239
copy this letter being very careful to

1824
01:27:16,089 --> 01:27:14,599
remove every reference to anything that

1825
01:27:19,450 --> 01:27:16,099
would bring us back to the person except

1826
01:27:21,459 --> 01:27:19,460
the handwriting analysis to use

1827
01:27:25,089 --> 01:27:21,469
responsibly in the future at my

1828
01:27:26,770 --> 01:27:25,099
discretion I did it very rarely but I

1829
01:27:29,229 --> 01:27:26,780
pulled out this file I haven't looked at

1830
01:27:31,959 --> 01:27:29,239
it in years and then some other case

1831
01:27:34,780 --> 01:27:31,969
material that I had and then remembered

1832
01:27:36,580 --> 01:27:34,790
that for time starting twenty years ago

1833
01:27:39,310 --> 01:27:36,590
I worked for six years for multimedia

1834
01:27:40,990 --> 01:27:39,320
company in Manhattan and one of the

1835
01:27:43,600 --> 01:27:41,000
first things they did was they optioned

1836
01:27:46,330 --> 01:27:43,610
all of the video lectures from a

1837
01:27:48,250 --> 01:27:46,340
conference that existed for ten years in

1838
01:27:51,700 --> 01:27:48,260
North Haven Connecticut called the Omega

1839
01:27:53,560 --> 01:27:51,710
conference over that time they had over

1840
01:27:55,870 --> 01:27:53,570
a hundred speakers you name it they were

1841
01:27:59,290 --> 01:27:55,880
there the best of the best

1842
01:28:01,600 --> 01:27:59,300
and they'd record the talks but not like

1843
01:28:03,069 --> 01:28:01,610
they do today not you know really high

1844
01:28:07,180 --> 01:28:03,079
def that kind of stuff

1845
01:28:12,299 --> 01:28:07,190
and it worked out that Budd in his life

1846
01:28:15,250 --> 01:28:12,309
gave only one talk on UFOs and children

1847
01:28:17,080 --> 01:28:15,260
abduction and children and he gave that

1848
01:28:21,819 --> 01:28:17,090
talk as one of a number of talks that he

1849
01:28:23,649 --> 01:28:21,829
gave at Omega in 1991 as I recall well I

1850
01:28:26,979 --> 01:28:23,659
haven't worked for that company for many

1851
01:28:29,020 --> 01:28:26,989
years but I contacted the folks who

1852
01:28:32,470 --> 01:28:29,030
owned it the company's long gone now and

1853
01:28:35,890 --> 01:28:32,480
said I would like your permission number

1854
01:28:40,299 --> 01:28:35,900
one to use some excerpts from that

1855
01:28:40,840 --> 01:28:40,309
important talk that Budd gave in a talk

1856
01:28:44,850 --> 01:28:40,850
that I

1857
01:28:48,270 --> 01:28:44,860
give more what would it take for me to

1858
01:28:51,280 --> 01:28:48,280
acquire the rights to that talk from you

1859
01:28:54,340 --> 01:28:51,290
we all know conferences do this

1860
01:28:56,230 --> 01:28:54,350
routinely and everybody in the work has

1861
01:28:59,950 --> 01:28:56,240
done it you simply sign a release you

1862
01:29:01,720 --> 01:28:59,960
give your talk Omega interesting was the

1863
01:29:03,820 --> 01:29:01,730
only conference I've ever spoken at

1864
01:29:06,460 --> 01:29:03,830
where every time they'd sell a video you

1865
01:29:08,110 --> 01:29:06,470
get like a buck or two otherwise we're

1866
01:29:10,270 --> 01:29:08,120
glad to do it you know if it helped keep

1867
01:29:11,950 --> 01:29:10,280
the conference going and all that you

1868
01:29:13,720 --> 01:29:11,960
know you buy the DVD of the talk that's

1869
01:29:17,230 --> 01:29:13,730
part of the deal that's part of what you

1870
01:29:20,230 --> 01:29:17,240
get paid for as a speaker anyway last

1871
01:29:22,810 --> 01:29:20,240
month I I acquired the rights to that

1872
01:29:26,860 --> 01:29:22,820
talk it's the only thing like it i own

1873
01:29:29,530 --> 01:29:26,870
but i can use it now as an educational

1874
01:29:32,610 --> 01:29:29,540
tool and share it with therapists and

1875
01:29:35,010 --> 01:29:32,620
people who have an interest in this also

1876
01:29:37,750 --> 01:29:35,020
bud working with a number of

1877
01:29:39,820 --> 01:29:37,760
psychologists and a brilliant

1878
01:29:41,650 --> 01:29:39,830
illustrator who was a good friend of

1879
01:29:45,550 --> 01:29:41,660
mine a schoolmate of mine many years ago

1880
01:29:48,940 --> 01:29:45,560
at SVA School of Visual Arts and a good

1881
01:29:54,040 --> 01:29:48,950
friend of buds being a fellow artist he

1882
01:29:57,760 --> 01:29:54,050
designed a psychological test which goes

1883
01:30:01,450 --> 01:29:57,770
under the acronym of hurt hir T the

1884
01:30:06,070 --> 01:30:01,460
Hopkins image recognition test which

1885
01:30:07,980 --> 01:30:06,080
some therapists still use especially if

1886
01:30:10,420 --> 01:30:07,990
they had an association with bud and

1887
01:30:13,930 --> 01:30:10,430
very few people know about it and I'm

1888
01:30:16,150 --> 01:30:13,940
going to present that test and the

1889
01:30:20,110 --> 01:30:16,160
images and the nomenclature from it as

1890
01:30:23,080 --> 01:30:20,120
part of this talk as well so that's what

1891
01:30:25,900 --> 01:30:23,090
I'm on the case about right now among

1892
01:30:29,080 --> 01:30:25,910
other things and very proud of the fact

1893
01:30:32,700 --> 01:30:29,090
that I can one more time open that door

1894
01:30:38,050 --> 01:30:32,710
to this extraordinarily courageous

1895
01:30:40,990 --> 01:30:38,060
decent humanist who did so much to help

1896
01:30:46,420 --> 01:30:41,000
us understand what is arguably the most

1897
01:30:49,360 --> 01:30:46,430
complex most anxiety provoking and most

1898
01:30:54,160 --> 01:30:49,370
centrally important aspect of the UFO

1899
01:30:54,729 --> 01:30:54,170
question as regards a certain segment of

1900
01:30:57,549 --> 01:30:54,739
individual

1901
01:31:02,129 --> 01:30:57,559
on earth and what that group of other

1902
01:31:05,950 --> 01:31:02,139
intelligences is all about Wow

1903
01:31:09,009 --> 01:31:05,960
fascinating this is great I want to get

1904
01:31:12,009 --> 01:31:09,019
into some of the cases but I just want

1905
01:31:14,770 --> 01:31:12,019
to ask you I'm a prior to that did John

1906
01:31:18,339 --> 01:31:14,780
Mac and Budd Hopkins know each other and

1907
01:31:22,479 --> 01:31:18,349
ever you know talk to each other they

1908
01:31:25,989 --> 01:31:22,489
not only knew each other they were

1909
01:31:28,660 --> 01:31:25,999
incredibly close friends extraordinarily

1910
01:31:30,819 --> 01:31:28,670
close colleagues they disagreed on a

1911
01:31:33,250 --> 01:31:30,829
number of aspects of the experience and

1912
01:31:36,279 --> 01:31:33,260
they had different primary interests

1913
01:31:38,770 --> 01:31:36,289
through bud I had the privilege of

1914
01:31:44,799 --> 01:31:38,780
becoming not just somebody who knew John

1915
01:31:48,640 --> 01:31:44,809
but a friend and I am I'm always proud

1916
01:31:52,899 --> 01:31:48,650
to say that after becoming familiar with

1917
01:31:56,100 --> 01:31:52,909
my research and my writing John tried to

1918
01:32:01,450 --> 01:31:56,110
get me a speaking job at Harvard that

1919
01:32:05,470 --> 01:32:01,460
didn't work out but in 1998 I was an

1920
01:32:09,279 --> 01:32:05,480
invited speaker just him and me an

1921
01:32:12,580 --> 01:32:09,289
evening where I gave a presentation on

1922
01:32:14,200 --> 01:32:12,590
the well-known British Rendlesham case

1923
01:32:17,620 --> 01:32:14,210
for the first part of the presentation

1924
01:32:21,120 --> 01:32:17,630
and then John join me for another area

1925
01:32:25,060 --> 01:32:21,130
of study that is very important I think

1926
01:32:28,930 --> 01:32:25,070
managing stress in UFO studies your own

1927
01:32:33,870 --> 01:32:28,940
as a researcher your clients or the

1928
01:32:40,720 --> 01:32:33,880
individuals that you're working with and

1929
01:32:42,040 --> 01:32:40,730
John and bud were both brilliant you

1930
01:32:44,080 --> 01:32:42,050
couldn't have two men from more

1931
01:32:47,709 --> 01:32:44,090
different backgrounds the way that they

1932
01:32:49,450 --> 01:32:47,719
met was John who for the three people

1933
01:32:54,459 --> 01:32:49,460
who were listening who don't know who he

1934
01:32:59,640 --> 01:32:54,469
is was a very distinguished psychiatrist

1935
01:33:02,919 --> 01:32:59,650
a product of a very wealthy

1936
01:33:07,080 --> 01:33:02,929
well-connected Jewish society family in

1937
01:33:09,959 --> 01:33:07,090
New York Harvard Harvard med

1938
01:33:14,820 --> 01:33:09,969
and on the faculty of Harvard as a

1939
01:33:18,240 --> 01:33:14,830
professor of psychiatry John I I

1940
01:33:20,550 --> 01:33:18,250
I knew John's work to a degree some

1941
01:33:23,939 --> 01:33:20,560
years before we met because in my work

1942
01:33:27,209 --> 01:33:23,949
as a crisis intervention volunteer and

1943
01:33:31,680 --> 01:33:27,219
shift supervisor especially doing an

1944
01:33:34,890 --> 01:33:31,690
all-night shift on the hotline we had a

1945
01:33:36,839 --> 01:33:34,900
small library of books dealing with

1946
01:33:39,600 --> 01:33:36,849
human dysfunction as you might imagine

1947
01:33:41,879 --> 01:33:39,610
and if you had a period of time where

1948
01:33:44,570 --> 01:33:41,889
you didn't have a call you'd read it and

1949
01:33:47,459 --> 01:33:44,580
the best book I have a read on the

1950
01:33:53,490 --> 01:33:47,469
dynamics and I've read several dynamics

1951
01:33:57,810 --> 01:33:53,500
of adolescent depression and suicide was

1952
01:34:00,140 --> 01:33:57,820
written by a doctor John Mack so I had

1953
01:34:03,209 --> 01:34:00,150
that under my belt years before we met

1954
01:34:05,700 --> 01:34:03,219
John also was a Pulitzer Prize winner he

1955
01:34:08,070 --> 01:34:05,710
won a Pulitzer Prize for a psychiatric

1956
01:34:12,240 --> 01:34:08,080
biography on TE Lawrence Lawrence of

1957
01:34:14,370 --> 01:34:12,250
Arabia anyway he learned at a certain

1958
01:34:17,280 --> 01:34:14,380
point in the 90s that there was his

1959
01:34:19,050 --> 01:34:17,290
painter in New York that thought that

1960
01:34:22,410 --> 01:34:19,060
aliens were coming to Earth and

1961
01:34:25,010 --> 01:34:22,420
inducting people in flying saucers and

1962
01:34:29,040 --> 01:34:25,020
he had a friend who knew this guy who

1963
01:34:31,589 --> 01:34:29,050
said he didn't seem crazy to him and Mac

1964
01:34:34,709 --> 01:34:31,599
who shared this story with me with a big

1965
01:34:37,410 --> 01:34:34,719
smile after the fact said I came to New

1966
01:34:41,060 --> 01:34:37,420
York to meet bud to meet this guy who is

1967
01:34:43,140 --> 01:34:41,070
obviously not mentally fully there and

1968
01:34:48,120 --> 01:34:43,150
it was one of the most life-changing

1969
01:34:49,800 --> 01:34:48,130
days of my life but basically it was a

1970
01:34:53,939 --> 01:34:49,810
force to be reckoned with opened his

1971
01:34:56,550 --> 01:34:53,949
files to John and John John's career

1972
01:35:02,100 --> 01:34:56,560
track went like that and for the rest of

1973
01:35:04,350 --> 01:35:02,110
his life his primary interest was partly

1974
01:35:08,879 --> 01:35:04,360
shared with bud the fact that we're not

1975
01:35:10,859 --> 01:35:08,889
alone and these other intelligences that

1976
01:35:13,320 --> 01:35:10,869
come and go with impunity and take

1977
01:35:14,750 --> 01:35:13,330
people and interface with human beings

1978
01:35:20,459 --> 01:35:14,760
what's it all about

1979
01:35:20,680 --> 01:35:20,469
however where they were different and I

1980
01:35:23,680 --> 01:35:20,690
think

1981
01:35:26,470 --> 01:35:23,690
some people have come to believe not

1982
01:35:29,979 --> 01:35:26,480
knowing otherwise that bud had this

1983
01:35:33,400 --> 01:35:29,989
obsession with bad aliens and John with

1984
01:35:35,020 --> 01:35:33,410
good aliens I even remembered times at

1985
01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:35,030
different points over hearing people say

1986
01:35:40,300 --> 01:35:38,330
you know at a conference or something

1987
01:35:43,180 --> 01:35:40,310
people who had had experiences talking

1988
01:35:46,650 --> 01:35:43,190
with each other so um you know you a Mac

1989
01:35:49,750 --> 01:35:46,660
kind of app that T or Hopkins app that T

1990
01:35:53,650 --> 01:35:49,760
exactly well what it was about was John

1991
01:35:55,479 --> 01:35:53,660
like a lot of us that came of age in the

1992
01:36:00,700 --> 01:35:55,489
60s although he was considerably older

1993
01:36:03,370 --> 01:36:00,710
than me really had lost faith in the

1994
01:36:05,650 --> 01:36:03,380
Western philosophical model and again

1995
01:36:08,500 --> 01:36:05,660
like a lot of us started to look east at

1996
01:36:12,130 --> 01:36:08,510
Eastern philosophies and transcendence

1997
01:36:16,000 --> 01:36:12,140
and what we could find that was positive

1998
01:36:20,590 --> 01:36:16,010
in that bud was a humanist he was a

1999
01:36:22,450 --> 01:36:20,600
total atheist a complete pragmatist but

2000
01:36:25,890 --> 01:36:22,460
he cared about people and he was

2001
01:36:30,939 --> 01:36:25,900
fascinated by this subject obviously and

2002
01:36:33,310 --> 01:36:30,949
so his interest was really rooted in the

2003
01:36:36,430 --> 01:36:33,320
impact this has on human beings

2004
01:36:39,550 --> 01:36:36,440
yes he became very knowledgeable through

2005
01:36:42,040 --> 01:36:39,560
the accounts that he got and I know

2006
01:36:45,939 --> 01:36:42,050
because one of my jobs over the years

2007
01:36:48,189 --> 01:36:45,949
was to log in the many many audio

2008
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:48,199
cassettes of hypnotic regressions and

2009
01:36:55,000 --> 01:36:52,010
interviews more of which I sat in on

2010
01:36:57,700 --> 01:36:55,010
that I can now remember into a double

2011
01:37:03,340 --> 01:36:57,710
set of Ledger's I mean all of this was

2012
01:37:05,290 --> 01:37:03,350
analog and I logged in most of what

2013
01:37:11,050 --> 01:37:05,300
probably is over a thousand audio

2014
01:37:16,270 --> 01:37:11,060
cassettes and the people that came to

2015
01:37:19,030 --> 01:37:16,280
Budd overwhelmingly had been traumatized

2016
01:37:22,020 --> 01:37:19,040
nothing in the Western model prepares us

2017
01:37:24,729 --> 01:37:22,030
for this nothing in our judeo-christian

2018
01:37:27,250 --> 01:37:24,739
traditions prepares us we don't learn

2019
01:37:30,340 --> 01:37:27,260
about it in school yes

2020
01:37:32,310 --> 01:37:30,350
you know like Ryan earlier

2021
01:37:33,760 --> 01:37:32,320
he's a very good example of somebody

2022
01:37:36,820 --> 01:37:33,770
who's conscious

2023
01:37:40,980 --> 01:37:36,830
memory is you know in a certain level

2024
01:37:43,900 --> 01:37:40,990
filled with feelings of love and good

2025
01:37:48,580 --> 01:37:43,910
but that sense that something lies below

2026
01:37:52,420 --> 01:37:48,590
the surface that is less than that which

2027
01:37:54,400 --> 01:37:52,430
is what we kept seeing I'm not saying in

2028
01:37:57,400 --> 01:37:54,410
any way and I hope nobody confuses this

2029
01:38:00,240 --> 01:37:57,410
or thinks that this was Hopkins point of

2030
01:38:03,310 --> 01:38:00,250
view either that there are other

2031
01:38:07,390 --> 01:38:03,320
intelligences that mean us well that are

2032
01:38:11,950 --> 01:38:07,400
trying to assist humanity but even so if

2033
01:38:14,380 --> 01:38:11,960
you wake up unprepared for this in your

2034
01:38:16,840 --> 01:38:14,390
bedroom with light coming under the door

2035
01:38:19,180 --> 01:38:16,850
and several beings that are not human

2036
01:38:21,430 --> 01:38:19,190
standing around your bed and you're

2037
01:38:23,140 --> 01:38:21,440
unable to move and you're floated up and

2038
01:38:25,600 --> 01:38:23,150
through a plate-glass window or through

2039
01:38:26,530 --> 01:38:25,610
your ceiling or through a wall and then

2040
01:38:28,990 --> 01:38:26,540
the next thing you know you're on a

2041
01:38:32,640 --> 01:38:29,000
metal table and beings are talking to

2042
01:38:36,340 --> 01:38:32,650
you in your head that can traumatize you

2043
01:38:39,100 --> 01:38:36,350
John got it and he absolutely understood

2044
01:38:42,940 --> 01:38:39,110
it and accepted it his primary interest

2045
01:38:45,550 --> 01:38:42,950
though and god bless him for it was what

2046
01:38:48,910 --> 01:38:45,560
is there about this how can we learn

2047
01:38:53,800 --> 01:38:48,920
what can be channeled from these

2048
01:38:58,840 --> 01:38:53,810
interactions to help people to assist in

2049
01:39:01,410 --> 01:38:58,850
something positive for Humanity you can

2050
01:39:05,200 --> 01:39:01,420
probably find it somewhere on YouTube I

2051
01:39:07,870 --> 01:39:05,210
forget when it happened John was killed

2052
01:39:09,790 --> 01:39:07,880
by a drunken driver in England 2004 I

2053
01:39:12,130 --> 01:39:09,800
was actually fairly close by at the time

2054
01:39:15,070 --> 01:39:12,140
and did my own investigation and

2055
01:39:17,110 --> 01:39:15,080
although there are people who will never

2056
01:39:19,390 --> 01:39:17,120
believe otherwise than that he was

2057
01:39:23,890 --> 01:39:19,400
murdered and don't get me wrong if there

2058
01:39:25,450 --> 01:39:23,900
was one guy to take out two who could

2059
01:39:27,190 --> 01:39:25,460
have done more and who could have

2060
01:39:29,380 --> 01:39:27,200
brought serious attention in the

2061
01:39:32,230 --> 01:39:29,390
so-called straight world to the subject

2062
01:39:35,650 --> 01:39:32,240
it was John not but bud was and always

2063
01:39:40,650 --> 01:39:35,660
will be seen by some as a painter me too

2064
01:39:43,240 --> 01:39:40,660
but John was an establishment figure and

2065
01:39:46,570 --> 01:39:43,250
Laurance Rockefeller was funding him to

2066
01:39:47,560 --> 01:39:46,580
a certain point he could have done some

2067
01:39:53,070 --> 01:39:47,570
real damage

2068
01:39:55,210 --> 01:39:53,080
to the ridicule and the ridicule errs

2069
01:40:01,390 --> 01:39:55,220
but again

2070
01:40:03,040 --> 01:40:01,400
John's commitment was to the positive

2071
01:40:05,010 --> 01:40:03,050
and what we could gain from it buds

2072
01:40:08,230 --> 01:40:05,020
commitment was to helping the people who

2073
01:40:14,020 --> 01:40:08,240
had experienced trauma that understood

2074
01:40:16,770 --> 01:40:14,030
they did a an evening together I think

2075
01:40:21,000 --> 01:40:16,780
at historic Fanueil Hall in Boston

2076
01:40:23,350 --> 01:40:21,010
several hours of these two intellectual

2077
01:40:26,140 --> 01:40:23,360
courageous Giants as far as I'm

2078
01:40:29,380 --> 01:40:26,150
concerned conducting a conversation to

2079
01:40:32,650 --> 01:40:29,390
this state it is the finest exchange of

2080
01:40:36,460 --> 01:40:32,660
ideas between two people ever recorded

2081
01:40:40,630 --> 01:40:36,470
on this subject Bar None I think it may

2082
01:40:44,170 --> 01:40:40,640
be available as a DVD from somebody I

2083
01:40:46,900 --> 01:40:44,180
forget the John Mac Foundation which

2084
01:40:50,400 --> 01:40:46,910
used to be peer program for

2085
01:40:53,310 --> 01:40:50,410
extraordinary experience research

2086
01:40:56,680 --> 01:40:53,320
intruders foundation never had a

2087
01:41:01,120 --> 01:40:56,690
copyright on it buds group nonprofit but

2088
01:41:02,920 --> 01:41:01,130
it's out there and you can see it but

2089
01:41:05,740 --> 01:41:02,930
they they were wonderful to be around

2090
01:41:08,800 --> 01:41:05,750
together and I miss them both

2091
01:41:10,510 --> 01:41:08,810
tremendously right right you know I

2092
01:41:15,070 --> 01:41:10,520
can't help but every time I think of

2093
01:41:18,430 --> 01:41:15,080
John Mac who I can't help but think of

2094
01:41:22,510 --> 01:41:18,440
the Ariel school incident and him doing

2095
01:41:25,240 --> 01:41:22,520
those kids yes yes gentle with him and

2096
01:41:28,330 --> 01:41:25,250
so oh my god it was so I loved watching

2097
01:41:30,610 --> 01:41:28,340
him with the kids and and and he made

2098
01:41:34,720 --> 01:41:30,620
them feel comfortable well let me tell

2099
01:41:36,820 --> 01:41:34,730
you something and everybody else what

2100
01:41:39,600 --> 01:41:36,830
Martin is referring to here is one of

2101
01:41:43,390 --> 01:41:39,610
the most important UFO events ever

2102
01:41:47,590 --> 01:41:43,400
BarNone it involves the landing of a

2103
01:41:52,150 --> 01:41:47,600
fully articulated craft on the property

2104
01:41:54,940 --> 01:41:52,160
of a private school in South Africa 20

2105
01:42:00,650 --> 01:41:54,950
odd 25 years ago whenever I forget the

2106
01:42:05,150 --> 01:42:00,660
date but go ahead yeah

2107
01:42:10,790 --> 01:42:05,160
the children interfaced with these

2108
01:42:12,950 --> 01:42:10,800
beings and John went there and

2109
01:42:15,920 --> 01:42:12,960
interviewed the other people did to the

2110
01:42:17,990 --> 01:42:15,930
case is as good as they get

2111
01:42:19,970 --> 01:42:18,000
I am here to tell you right now that

2112
01:42:23,420 --> 01:42:19,980
somebody I am proud to call a friend and

2113
01:42:26,270 --> 01:42:23,430
somebody bud was - who has gone on to

2114
01:42:29,480 --> 01:42:26,280
become a filmmaker Randall Nickerson has

2115
01:42:35,090 --> 01:42:29,490
been working for years yes on a

2116
01:42:38,540 --> 01:42:35,100
documentary on this very subject it it's

2117
01:42:40,640 --> 01:42:38,550
one of those projects that you know you

2118
01:42:42,680 --> 01:42:40,650
get into it you think okay I can get

2119
01:42:46,640 --> 01:42:42,690
this knocked out for X amount and X

2120
01:42:48,410 --> 01:42:46,650
amount of time well I I have nothing but

2121
01:42:51,560 --> 01:42:48,420
respect and admiration for Randy we

2122
01:42:54,680 --> 01:42:51,570
spoke last week and it sounds like

2123
01:42:57,650 --> 01:42:54,690
before the end of the year this is going

2124
01:42:59,690 --> 01:42:57,660
to hit and hit big you will most

2125
01:43:04,820 --> 01:42:59,700
certainly want him to be a guest as will

2126
01:43:07,160 --> 01:43:04,830
everybody on the air the documentary

2127
01:43:10,130 --> 01:43:07,170
itself I've seen bits and pieces over

2128
01:43:13,130 --> 01:43:10,140
the years and it will include a good

2129
01:43:17,540 --> 01:43:13,140
deal of the Mack footage he was very

2130
01:43:19,250 --> 01:43:17,550
close with John as well right and it's

2131
01:43:21,800 --> 01:43:19,260
not just going to be an important UFO

2132
01:43:24,290 --> 01:43:21,810
documentary as important to one that has

2133
01:43:26,380 --> 01:43:24,300
ever been done and I say that with a

2134
01:43:31,100 --> 01:43:26,390
fair amount of ego involved in Travis

2135
01:43:32,570 --> 01:43:31,110
and pride as well but this is just going

2136
01:43:34,730 --> 01:43:32,580
to be one of the most important

2137
01:43:37,580 --> 01:43:34,740
documentaries as far as I'm concerned

2138
01:43:40,970 --> 01:43:37,590
ever made that's a heck of a claim I

2139
01:43:44,210 --> 01:43:40,980
know but I have that much faith in Randy

2140
01:43:47,780 --> 01:43:44,220
and I know he's holding himself to an

2141
01:43:52,520 --> 01:43:47,790
extraordinary standard yes I for I

2142
01:43:54,350 --> 01:43:52,530
salute him and I am just honored to be

2143
01:43:57,440 --> 01:43:54,360
his friend but I'm so glad you mentioned

2144
01:43:59,660 --> 01:43:57,450
the case because without Donald so

2145
01:44:03,650 --> 01:43:59,670
friends with Randy and idea and it's

2146
01:44:08,600 --> 01:44:03,660
hard about an update and yeah I will

2147
01:44:10,760 --> 01:44:08,610
tell you know from knowing him and we

2148
01:44:14,649 --> 01:44:10,770
talk everything from Steinway pianos

2149
01:44:16,649 --> 01:44:14,659
he's a a wonderful pianist by the way

2150
01:44:19,179 --> 01:44:16,659
and all kinds of things

2151
01:44:21,189 --> 01:44:19,189
him and his dad are you know restoring

2152
01:44:22,929 --> 01:44:21,199
cars who you name it he's really

2153
01:44:24,819 --> 01:44:22,939
interesting yes also the nicest people

2154
01:44:28,719 --> 01:44:24,829
in the world he really is one of the

2155
01:44:30,429 --> 01:44:28,729
most hard-working but as filmmaker he

2156
01:44:34,449 --> 01:44:30,439
this is gonna blow people's minds and

2157
01:44:36,250 --> 01:44:34,459
people think that UFOs are a joke this

2158
01:44:39,009 --> 01:44:36,260
is gonna be a game changer and I know

2159
01:44:41,770 --> 01:44:39,019
that's putting a lot on him on a certain

2160
01:44:44,859 --> 01:44:41,780
level but I I do it without thinking

2161
01:44:48,040 --> 01:44:44,869
twice about it well he is you mentioned

2162
01:44:51,669 --> 01:44:48,050
it and I will collaborate that he is

2163
01:44:54,699 --> 01:44:51,679
probably the most fussy person out there

2164
01:44:56,140 --> 01:44:54,709
when it comes to his work if anyone

2165
01:44:58,000 --> 01:44:56,150
wants to check out his wildlife

2166
01:45:00,699 --> 01:44:58,010
photography it's it'll just blow you

2167
01:45:02,890 --> 01:45:00,709
away yeah and he's he's fussy about

2168
01:45:05,799 --> 01:45:02,900
every single thing he does and he could

2169
01:45:07,870 --> 01:45:05,809
have you know put this in the can two or

2170
01:45:09,399 --> 01:45:07,880
three years ago but he's absolutely and

2171
01:45:12,189 --> 01:45:09,409
it would have been great yes it's going

2172
01:45:14,830 --> 01:45:12,199
to be but not on standard yeah that's

2173
01:45:16,569 --> 01:45:14,840
right yeah so we're all gonna benefit

2174
01:45:18,189 --> 01:45:16,579
from it that's right yeah I can't wait

2175
01:45:20,560 --> 01:45:18,199
til that comes out and there's gonna be

2176
01:45:25,029 --> 01:45:20,570
another interesting film coming out this

2177
01:45:27,699 --> 01:45:25,039
year with James Fox and Lee Spiegel is

2178
01:45:29,649 --> 01:45:27,709
working that they're working together on

2179
01:45:32,649 --> 01:45:29,659
that that's gonna be another great film

2180
01:45:35,620 --> 01:45:32,659
so the people Michael's here so my

2181
01:45:38,770 --> 01:45:35,630
favorite people in the work yeah Lee and

2182
01:45:40,449 --> 01:45:38,780
I go way back and James is just only one

2183
01:45:43,989 --> 01:45:40,459
of the greatest people ever and a

2184
01:45:45,489 --> 01:45:43,999
brilliant film maker also Lee for

2185
01:45:50,129 --> 01:45:45,499
anybody who's not familiar with his name

2186
01:45:52,120 --> 01:45:50,139
is not like me he is not a self trained

2187
01:45:55,600 --> 01:45:52,130
investigative writer he's a real

2188
01:45:57,879 --> 01:45:55,610
journalist and has contributed a

2189
01:45:59,109 --> 01:45:57,889
tremendous amount to the field for a

2190
01:46:03,370 --> 01:45:59,119
good period of time I don't know if he

2191
01:46:08,830 --> 01:46:03,380
still is he was I think denotes UFO man

2192
01:46:14,529 --> 01:46:08,840
and without Lee who was like me a kid

2193
01:46:16,330 --> 01:46:14,539
from Queens absolutely obsessed with the

2194
01:46:20,339 --> 01:46:16,340
subject and bringing it to the United

2195
01:46:26,229 --> 01:46:20,349
Nations there might well not have been a

2196
01:46:27,610 --> 01:46:26,239
1978 UN resolution to study it of course

2197
01:46:30,100 --> 01:46:27,620
a Titan

2198
01:46:32,290 --> 01:46:30,110
but that's where I go back to that was

2199
01:46:34,930 --> 01:46:32,300
my first serious involvement in the work

2200
01:46:37,870 --> 01:46:34,940
I helped edit a paper for the Secretary

2201
01:46:41,530 --> 01:46:37,880
General Wow written by one of my mentors

2202
01:46:43,570 --> 01:46:41,540
and an important paper - even if

2203
01:46:47,500 --> 01:46:43,580
grammatically problematic because

2204
01:46:51,310 --> 01:46:47,510
Coleman banca vet ski was very Hungarian

2205
01:46:52,780 --> 01:46:51,320
my colleague Antonio Naas and I just

2206
01:46:57,940 --> 01:46:52,790
couldn't get him to make certain changes

2207
01:47:01,060 --> 01:46:57,950
but his premise was what if a legitimate

2208
01:47:03,160 --> 01:47:01,070
truly anomalous UFO comes into American

2209
01:47:06,520 --> 01:47:03,170
or Soviet airspace than being the height

2210
01:47:09,100 --> 01:47:06,530
of the Cold War and is mistaken for an

2211
01:47:13,440 --> 01:47:09,110
incoming ICBM or other destructive

2212
01:47:16,470 --> 01:47:13,450
missile or plane could it not set off a

2213
01:47:19,270 --> 01:47:16,480
potential nuclear conflagration and

2214
01:47:22,150 --> 01:47:19,280
Coleman had been a member of the General

2215
01:47:23,650 --> 01:47:22,160
Staff of the Royal Hungarian army during

2216
01:47:28,570 --> 01:47:23,660
world war ii and knew what he was

2217
01:47:30,700 --> 01:47:28,580
talking about but that for me was an

2218
01:47:33,780 --> 01:47:30,710
absolutely electrifying experience it's

2219
01:47:37,330 --> 01:47:33,790
where I first heard Stanton Friedman

2220
01:47:39,910 --> 01:47:37,340
Allen Hynek Jacques Vallee speaking at

2221
01:47:44,950 --> 01:47:39,920
the UN before the Security Committee

2222
01:47:49,270 --> 01:47:44,960
special count special committee and yeah

2223
01:47:52,150 --> 01:47:49,280
Lee and and James documentary is going

2224
01:47:54,040 --> 01:47:52,160
to be sensational - so well we have two

2225
01:47:56,710 --> 01:47:54,050
major contributions coming out of this

2226
01:47:58,780 --> 01:47:56,720
year no question that's right we only

2227
01:48:00,010 --> 01:47:58,790
have I think three minutes left Peter or

2228
01:48:03,340 --> 01:48:00,020
two two and a half minutes something

2229
01:48:04,930 --> 01:48:03,350
like that and I kept promising everyone

2230
01:48:08,230 --> 01:48:04,940
that we've talked about some of the

2231
01:48:10,150 --> 01:48:08,240
incidents of that but investigated is

2232
01:48:11,530 --> 01:48:10,160
there one that you think you can wrap up

2233
01:48:12,820 --> 01:48:11,540
in a couple minutes that is really

2234
01:48:16,120 --> 01:48:12,830
interesting just keep in mind we only

2235
01:48:19,000 --> 01:48:16,130
have about two minutes with that and

2236
01:48:20,800 --> 01:48:19,010
when int that comes to mind well for the

2237
01:48:22,930 --> 01:48:20,810
person who hasn't heard the one the

2238
01:48:24,730 --> 01:48:22,940
Brooklyn Bridge one can you just kind of

2239
01:48:28,840 --> 01:48:24,740
tell that perhaps that is such a

2240
01:48:31,450 --> 01:48:28,850
fascinating one what I will do is I

2241
01:48:35,290 --> 01:48:31,460
can't do that justice in two minutes and

2242
01:48:37,990 --> 01:48:35,300
I wouldn't try what I will say is Budd

2243
01:48:40,200 --> 01:48:38,000
Hopkins wrote a number of books all very

2244
01:48:44,060 --> 01:48:40,210
important

2245
01:48:46,709 --> 01:48:44,070
and the one that is the most challenging

2246
01:48:49,650 --> 01:48:46,719
the best research the most mind-blowing

2247
01:48:52,229 --> 01:48:49,660
is a book called witnessed the true

2248
01:48:57,390 --> 01:48:52,239
story of the Brooklyn Bridge UFO

2249
01:49:00,479 --> 01:48:57,400
abductions involving a woman pseudonym

2250
01:49:02,459 --> 01:49:00,489
Linda Cortile italian-american still

2251
01:49:05,729 --> 01:49:02,469
lives in the same neighborhood that she

2252
01:49:06,959 --> 01:49:05,739
grew up in and lower Manhattan who like

2253
01:49:10,290 --> 01:49:06,969
many people that have had these

2254
01:49:14,130 --> 01:49:10,300
experiences was taken from the time she

2255
01:49:16,670 --> 01:49:14,140
was very young however on this

2256
01:49:20,160 --> 01:49:16,680
particular event

2257
01:49:23,550 --> 01:49:20,170
she was taken and floated through the

2258
01:49:25,320 --> 01:49:23,560
plate-glass window of her I believe 10th

2259
01:49:27,390 --> 01:49:25,330
floor apartment very close to the

2260
01:49:29,670 --> 01:49:27,400
Brooklyn Bridge at about 2:00 in the

2261
01:49:33,360 --> 01:49:29,680
morning with a number of beings floated

2262
01:49:37,650 --> 01:49:33,370
also and taken up into UFO hanging over

2263
01:49:39,140 --> 01:49:37,660
there building it was observed it's 2:00

2264
01:49:42,540 --> 01:49:39,150
in the morning but it's Manhattan

2265
01:49:46,500 --> 01:49:42,550
probably hundreds of people saw several

2266
01:49:52,010 --> 01:49:46,510
doesn't gave their accounts to Budd as

2267
01:49:57,780 --> 01:49:54,450
life-changing descriptions of the event

2268
01:50:01,590 --> 01:49:57,790
and I assisted on many of buds

2269
01:50:05,850 --> 01:50:01,600
investigations but this was the one that

2270
01:50:08,430 --> 01:50:05,860
I worked the most with and it took six

2271
01:50:13,830 --> 01:50:08,440
years started an 89 book was published

2272
01:50:15,690 --> 01:50:13,840
in 96 you can find a used copy online

2273
01:50:17,370 --> 01:50:15,700
for a couple of bucks witness the true

2274
01:50:21,479 --> 01:50:17,380
story of the Brooklyn Bridge UFO

2275
01:50:23,670 --> 01:50:21,489
abductions Budd with two DS Hopkins read

2276
01:50:26,490 --> 01:50:23,680
it and maybe even have a follow up show

2277
01:50:30,830 --> 01:50:26,500
alright Peter thanks so much and anyone

2278
01:50:33,720 --> 01:50:30,840
can go to Peter Robbins comm right yeah

2279
01:50:35,280 --> 01:50:33,730
sorely in need of updating also

2280
01:50:38,459 --> 01:50:35,290
available on Facebook

2281
01:50:40,530 --> 01:50:38,469
yeah and Martin looking forward to

2282
01:50:42,540 --> 01:50:40,540
seeing around the campus and yeah always

2283
01:50:44,640 --> 01:50:42,550
wonderful spending time with you same

2284
01:50:46,620 --> 01:50:44,650
here Peter thank you very much all right

2285
01:50:50,430 --> 01:50:46,630
everyone we are out of time just to let

2286
01:50:52,979 --> 01:50:50,440
you know that this coming Friday at 1:00

2287
01:50:53,820 --> 01:50:52,989
p.m. Eastern Standard Time we will be on

2288
01:50:56,970 --> 01:50:53,830
with

2289
01:50:58,410 --> 01:50:56,980
Joel and Paul Hynek so please join us

2290
01:51:02,030 --> 01:50:58,420
that's a livestream that's going to be a

2291
01:51:06,540 --> 01:51:02,040
bonus podcast for supporters and then

2292
01:51:07,980 --> 01:51:06,550
next week we have Todd rogue away and we

2293
01:51:10,920 --> 01:51:07,990
have Vincent a Leo

2294
01:51:14,580 --> 01:51:10,930
they are both aviators one is a fighter

2295
01:51:17,400 --> 01:51:14,590
pilot and the other writes for the war

2296
01:51:19,560 --> 01:51:17,410
zone and we're gonna be talking a VA

2297
01:51:21,240 --> 01:51:19,570
ssin and UFOs I love that topic so

2298
01:51:22,350 --> 01:51:21,250
that'll be next week thanks for everyone